No they don't, not on mine.

Ok. I respect that. Who do you like?

I can understand being a "glass if half full" kind of guy but at some point, you have to also realize that it's still half empty. Saying this is the best of what we've got left is not the same as saying it's good. If you put 11 $40k claimers in the field, you'd still have 11 3yos in a grade one race. A competitive race, a good betting race, doesn't make it a good race. If you turn on the men's 100m final at the Olympics and Bolt, Blake, Gatlin, Powell, and Gay are all missing, it's not even worth watching. Sure, the remaining runners could end up in an eight-way dead-heat and it would make for an exciting finish....but the reason we watch sports at the highest level is to see the highest quality. Through no fault of it's own, this race completely lacks it.

So with most of the best 3 year olds retiring, it's making me wonder about some prominent ones earlier in the year-
Secret Circle?
Algorithms?
Mark Valeski?
Gemologist?
Creative Cause?

If the connections of some also-rans like Optimizer, Dullahan, Daddy Nose Best, My Adonis etc. knew there'd be more defections from this race than recruits from Penn St football, you probably would see even more entries lol

This just in....there are very few good horses in modern racing.

I agree and that was my point. There are few and the few we have aren't here. So it's not possible to be a good field if there aren't any good horses. When the NFL players went on strike in 1987, just cause there were replacement players on the field and they wore the uniforms of the real teams and played in the same stadiums and the tickets cost as much, it wasn't good football.

Jennie Rees from the Louisville Courier-Journal has this posted on her blog. "My mantra: There's never a bad Derby, some are just better than others."

Agreed entirely that the race does not have the highest quality. A glance at the PPs makes this indisputable.

The very fact, however, that people bemoan the race because its quality, top to bottom, is lacking, is a function of people looking for something to criticize. I don't think we have any future superstars (edit - in this race), and we certainly have no current stars...

They can't criticize the card, the lack of claiming races, the full fields, and the other good stakes races...leaving this to be the lone critical element...I guess that's why we have message boards. It's tiring and predictable.

Probably the horse from the Haskell, the runner up.

Race 8
 

Is Battle Hardened a live price or a trap in the 8th? He is 15-1ML, but feels like he will be around 6-1 at post time. Eddie K has great stats first time turf and dirt to turf. There is no speed in this race at all. He figures to be right up on the lead. Looking for some opinions on this race and this horse.

Ok.
Thanks.

The Travers field is hardly a top one historically speaking but it is hard to say that it isnt a pretty good race considering the rash of injuries to higher profile horses recently. At the very least virtually all of the horses in it are likely to continue to run and possibly develop into good 4 yo's though some may be competing in races with numbers next to them as opposed to names.

Again, I think that a lot of the disagreement is that some want to say that it's good because it's the best of what's left and others want to say it's no good because the horses aren't good.

I also don't think that the odds of any of them developing into good 4yos is too high. That doesn't mean that some of them might not become major stakes winners though. Someone has got to win the races and when all of the top horses are gone, there's a vacuum that needs to be filled. I mentioned men's track. If Bolt, Gatlin, Blake, etc., all retire, that doesn't mean that the guy that wins the world title developed into a good runner. There's a huge difference between best of what's left and actual good.

Spot on and to think going into the derby I was telling everyone coming to my derby party that i was stoked because i thought it was the best 3 year old crop in some time. Wow how things change in 3 months.

And as customers we have the right to criticize the product being delivered. And you being a racing insider is doing what racing insiders always do. Dismiss our complaint and talk down to us like we dont know what the hell we are talking about.

The term racing insider, is silly IMO.

Making that statement without giving any reasoning behind it is silly IMO but everyone is entitled to an opinion. Dismissing ones opinion out of hand and talking down to them is what rankles people. Of course those that do that will always fall back on the tired, you mistook what i said line.

Of course, the irony is that Pat works for a company that has developed the most innovative and fan friendly technology in the game.

Don't forget, fellow dark-state-ers, NBC is carrying these races live 4-6 PM.

ok, question. do people want a good betting race? yes. is this a good betting race? i think it is.
now, of course one wants the big races to draw the big names, but in the end, don't you want a good betting race? obviously the race is a victim of the war of attrition. exactly what could nyra have done to get a better group? i think criticism of nyra in this case is unwarranted. to complain is to suggest there could have been something done. how could they have produced a better field quality-wise?

Can we return to handicapping these racings instead of complaining? Someone will win each of them...I'd like to figure out who.:D

Very admirable of team Peras International to enter Yara for the Test :rolleyes:

think Contested gets softened up in the test, and don't even want to think about how many puns Durkin has with "TEST" and "CONTESTED" if she wins
*beatable

after looking at the entire card, i'm not sure if it's a good thing or bad thing that the only races that look "playable" are the stake races. Really tough card for tomorrow


-bt-

Alpha is 2 for 2 at Saratoga, never worse than 2nd in NY. He should romp in this race, and then go for The JCGP..

The complaint is not with NYRA. As you said, they couldn't do more to get a better field. It's with the state of the sport in general. I have read a few people saying how it's a good betting race. That may be so but the fifth at Yavapai can also be a good betting race. Any race at any track on any day can be. When it's a race that's supposed to be of the highest quality, I don't think it's wrong to have a complaint when the quality is severely lacking. I feel like every time people make excuses for the continuing decline in quality, it will take that much longer to figure out what changes need to be made to start turning things around.

i think for some, yes, it is a complaint with nyra.
yeah, everyone knows what changes need to be made. the trick is getting those who benefit from the current climate to make that change. after all, how long can breeders benefit if the sport suffers? if the sport declines far enough, the demand for horses will also drop. so, the cannibalization of top horses in order to breed would eventually lead to the end of breeding...
however, in recent years, young sires' have declined in popularity due to the economy, so that points to a self-correction.
but this year imo is an anomaly. these horses have suffered legitimate injuries. even if not normally career-ending, they certainly were season-ending. this is the type of occurrence that should cause a halt and re-examination by breeders.
take i'll have another for instance....i think there are two reasons he didn't get any real interest. one is commercial viability. his son hasn't exactly set the world on fire, and iha could be his one blip. but the other thing i wonder about-he's an unsound horse. it caused issues for him at two, and probably contributed to the early end of his career at three. is he actually the type of horse one wants to sire future racehorses?

i don't think this years travers is a good indication that the sport is going south in a hurry. i think it's just suffered because of a run of bad luck. but i do think people really need to take a step back and re-evaluate exactly why they choose who they choose for stud and broodmare purposes. the breeders would be doing themselves and everyone else involved if they would take a bit more effort in choosing who to stand.

another thing...just like in human medicine, veterinary science has taken huge strides. but in both cases, there hasn't been a real surge in better health or longevity. perhaps everyone involved needs to take some real time to consider what they're doing, how, and why. and where does it take them? are they improving the breed, and thus the sport?

Like someone said, some Derbys are better than others.

This Travers may not feature, in some minds, the star power that they would like to see, but it definitely has some interesting handicapping angles, and it is fairly representative of what a summer 3YO race looks like when the season has lost a significant portion of the cream of its crop. As for me, I think it still has some very good and interesting horses as we look to the latter part of the year.

As for the "state of racing," if you don't like the Travers, then just look to the Pacific Classic. That race is loaded with opportunities and really interesting horses.

http://www.drf.com/news/crist-traver...ling-after-all

crist on the travers...and i agree, it is an appealing race.

It's a real shocker that some horseplayers are chronic complainers! :rolleyes:

I could see people having a legitimate gripe if the top guns were still in training and all decided to skip the race. Such isn't the case, so either bet it, or pick your ball up and go home (with your head down, kicking rocks, using expletives) Either way, Toga will survive!

Looks like John V could have a big day.

Great betting race, horrible quality from what is expected of the race historically. I'm shocked that this is too difficult a concept for people to comprehend. Saying it is in no means bashing or blaming NYRA for it. It is what it is due to the depleted crop.

Let me ask this, why should anyone believe these east coast horses are on the same level as those from Cali? They've been getting slapped around all year in the big races.

I get this. I was on Secret Circle and Creative Cause very early on. Love Bode and Paynter. I get it, but I dont think its just that clear cut.
Liason stinks. He came east and his Dandy was nothing special. Nonios has only been a head and 1/2 length ahead of him out in Cali. I know Nonios ran well at Monmouth, but he was never winning that race. He kinda just sucked up IMO. Ill use him out of respect for you and a few other people who like him, a lot. And because while I think Alpha is OK, I know the pace was super soft last time. Alpha was actually a horse I liked a lot more with Hansen in. Better price and trip on Alpha had Hansen been in here. Nonios can clearly win. I love the way JV is riding. FIgure to sit close. I guess there really is no reasson to be against him.
Good Luck tomorrow, well today at this point. BTW I saw your comment about Castellano over on PA. The guy is a joke. His move last Saturday on that #9 horse from Monmouth, the horse was cutting back. I forgot the name. But he hearded out into the 2 or 3 and let the NY bred who I was totally against re rally/wire. Cost me an OK double. Im kinda sick of Castellano.

Ill go ahead and post this again. Ill never understand it. A big weekend like this and people want to argue about NYRA and other crap rather then discuss the actual races.
Ill add that Im going to play Eddie K, and back up with Lukas. Try to get through this 8th with just 11,12.

Is Battle Hardened a live price or a trap in the 8th? He is 15-1ML, but feels like he will be around 6-1 at post time. Eddie K has great stats first time turf and dirt to turf. There is no speed in this race at all. He figures to be right up on the lead. Looking for some opinions on this race and this horse.

Liaison doesn't stink and anyone who thinks he didn't run well in the Jim Dandy wasn't paying attention.

I get the wide trip. I see it. But is it not a coincidence that this horse went way off form when he started running on real dirt? Then he gets back to Hollywood and runs 2 career tops, back to back. Then comes here and while he had a trip just seems slow again and makes no impact. Anyone who said LiaIson is a huge Hollywood horse for course would not be wrong.

This is alpha 's coming out party and another step toward HOY
I am betting he loves this surface

He would have to be possessed by the ghost of Secretariat to even have a chance against the best older horses and the HOTY title.

My Super Box is 3-6-8-11

His two dirt races were FAR from ideal trips, and he still ran ok.