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-   -   8/25 (SAR): Travers, King's Bishop, Test (G1's), Ballston Spa (G3) (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48089)

cmorioles 08-23-2012 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 885810)
Your a figure guy. His CD races destroy everyone in this race. Including Alpha.
No they don't, not on mine.

RockHardTen1985 08-23-2012 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 885812)
No they don't, not on mine.
Ok. I respect that. Who do you like?

King Glorious 08-23-2012 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatCummings (Post 885805)
I'm far from a NYRA shill. I'm an optimist, and think that a bad day at the track beats a good day almost anywhere else, but more so at Saratoga than just about anywhere.

There are 11 horses in a G1 3YO race in a season that has been completely decimated by injuries, retirements, and basically, average horses - and a bunch of that coming in the last two months. It could be a six horse field and an awful betting race. It isn't.

The winners of the following races are either retired or on extended breaks:
BC Juvenile, Delta Jackpot, Remsen, Gulfstream Park Derby, Sham, Lecomte, Holy Bull, Robert Lewis, San Vincente, Southwest (both divisions), Risen Star, Fountain of Youth, Battaglia, Gotham, San Felipe, Rebel, Spiral, Florida Derby, Illinois Derby, Santa Anita Derby, Arkansas Derby, Derby Trial, Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Peter Pan, Belmont...

Sure, some of those races above are repeats.

Paynter, who is completely hyped after the Haskell win and the mysterious illness, has a single graded stakes win to his name.

What exactly was NYRA going to do to get better quality in this field? They almost got Reddam to bring over a foreigner who was 2nd to the Secretariat winner, Bayrir, but he strained a muscle and missed the race.

This is the game we have. I don't have time for the "back in the day" crowd when everything was always better than the present.
I can understand being a "glass if half full" kind of guy but at some point, you have to also realize that it's still half empty. Saying this is the best of what we've got left is not the same as saying it's good. If you put 11 $40k claimers in the field, you'd still have 11 3yos in a grade one race. A competitive race, a good betting race, doesn't make it a good race. If you turn on the men's 100m final at the Olympics and Bolt, Blake, Gatlin, Powell, and Gay are all missing, it's not even worth watching. Sure, the remaining runners could end up in an eight-way dead-heat and it would make for an exciting finish....but the reason we watch sports at the highest level is to see the highest quality. Through no fault of it's own, this race completely lacks it.

pmayjr 08-23-2012 08:11 PM
So with most of the best 3 year olds retiring, it's making me wonder about some prominent ones earlier in the year-
Secret Circle?
Algorithms?
Mark Valeski?
Gemologist?
Creative Cause?

If the connections of some also-rans like Optimizer, Dullahan, Daddy Nose Best, My Adonis etc. knew there'd be more defections from this race than recruits from Penn St football, you probably would see even more entries lol

NTamm1215 08-23-2012 08:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious (Post 885818)
I can understand being a "glass if half full" kind of guy but at some point, you have to also realize that it's still half empty. Saying this is the best of what we've got left is not the same as saying it's good. If you put 11 $40k claimers in the field, you'd still have 11 3yos in a grade one race. A competitive race, a good betting race, doesn't make it a good race. If you turn on the men's 100m final at the Olympics and Bolt, Blake, Gatlin, Powell, and Gay are all missing, it's not even worth watching. Sure, the remaining runners could end up in an eight-way dead-heat and it would make for an exciting finish....but the reason we watch sports at the highest level is to see the highest quality. Through no fault of it's own, this race completely lacks it.
This just in....there are very few good horses in modern racing.

King Glorious 08-23-2012 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215 (Post 885825)
This just in....there are very few good horses in modern racing.
I agree and that was my point. There are few and the few we have aren't here. So it's not possible to be a good field if there aren't any good horses. When the NFL players went on strike in 1987, just cause there were replacement players on the field and they wore the uniforms of the real teams and played in the same stadiums and the tickets cost as much, it wasn't good football.

PatCummings 08-23-2012 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious (Post 885818)
I can understand being a "glass if half full" kind of guy but at some point, you have to also realize that it's still half empty. Saying this is the best of what we've got left is not the same as saying it's good. If you put 11 $40k claimers in the field, you'd still have 11 3yos in a grade one race. A competitive race, a good betting race, doesn't make it a good race. If you turn on the men's 100m final at the Olympics and Bolt, Blake, Gatlin, Powell, and Gay are all missing, it's not even worth watching. Sure, the remaining runners could end up in an eight-way dead-heat and it would make for an exciting finish....but the reason we watch sports at the highest level is to see the highest quality. Through no fault of it's own, this race completely lacks it.
Jennie Rees from the Louisville Courier-Journal has this posted on her blog. "My mantra: There's never a bad Derby, some are just better than others."

Agreed entirely that the race does not have the highest quality. A glance at the PPs makes this indisputable.

The very fact, however, that people bemoan the race because its quality, top to bottom, is lacking, is a function of people looking for something to criticize. I don't think we have any future superstars (edit - in this race), and we certainly have no current stars...

They can't criticize the card, the lack of claiming races, the full fields, and the other good stakes races...leaving this to be the lone critical element...I guess that's why we have message boards. It's tiring and predictable.

cmorioles 08-23-2012 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 885813)
Ok. I respect that. Who do you like?
Probably the horse from the Haskell, the runner up.

RockHardTen1985 08-23-2012 10:45 PM
Race 8
 
Is Battle Hardened a live price or a trap in the 8th? He is 15-1ML, but feels like he will be around 6-1 at post time. Eddie K has great stats first time turf and dirt to turf. There is no speed in this race at all. He figures to be right up on the lead. Looking for some opinions on this race and this horse.

RockHardTen1985 08-23-2012 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmorioles (Post 885829)
Probably the horse from the Haskell, the runner up.
Ok.
Thanks.

Cannon Shell 08-23-2012 11:36 PM
The Travers field is hardly a top one historically speaking but it is hard to say that it isnt a pretty good race considering the rash of injuries to higher profile horses recently. At the very least virtually all of the horses in it are likely to continue to run and possibly develop into good 4 yo's though some may be competing in races with numbers next to them as opposed to names.

King Glorious 08-24-2012 12:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 885847)
The Travers field is hardly a top one historically speaking but it is hard to say that it isnt a pretty good race considering the rash of injuries to higher profile horses recently. At the very least virtually all of the horses in it are likely to continue to run and possibly develop into good 4 yo's though some may be competing in races with numbers next to them as opposed to names.
Again, I think that a lot of the disagreement is that some want to say that it's good because it's the best of what's left and others want to say it's no good because the horses aren't good.

I also don't think that the odds of any of them developing into good 4yos is too high. That doesn't mean that some of them might not become major stakes winners though. Someone has got to win the races and when all of the top horses are gone, there's a vacuum that needs to be filled. I mentioned men's track. If Bolt, Gatlin, Blake, etc., all retire, that doesn't mean that the guy that wins the world title developed into a good runner. There's a huge difference between best of what's left and actual good.

jms62 08-24-2012 04:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTamm1215 (Post 885825)
This just in....there are very few good horses in modern racing.
Spot on and to think going into the derby I was telling everyone coming to my derby party that i was stoked because i thought it was the best 3 year old crop in some time. Wow how things change in 3 months.

jms62 08-24-2012 04:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatCummings (Post 885827)
Jennie Rees from the Louisville Courier-Journal has this posted on her blog. "My mantra: There's never a bad Derby, some are just better than others."

Agreed entirely that the race does not have the highest quality. A glance at the PPs makes this indisputable.

The very fact, however, that people bemoan the race because its quality, top to bottom, is lacking, is a function of people looking for something to criticize. I don't think we have any future superstars (edit - in this race), and we certainly have no current stars...

They can't criticize the card, the lack of claiming races, the full fields, and the other good stakes races...leaving this to be the lone critical element...I guess that's why we have message boards. It's tiring and predictable.
And as customers we have the right to criticize the product being delivered. And you being a racing insider is doing what racing insiders always do. Dismiss our complaint and talk down to us like we dont know what the hell we are talking about.

RockHardTen1985 08-24-2012 06:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 885855)
And as customers we have the right to criticize the product being delivered. And you being a racing insider is doing what racing insiders always do. Dismiss our complaint and talk down to us like we dont know what the hell we are talking about.
The term racing insider, is silly IMO.

jms62 08-24-2012 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 885865)
The term racing insider, is silly IMO.
Making that statement without giving any reasoning behind it is silly IMO but everyone is entitled to an opinion. Dismissing ones opinion out of hand and talking down to them is what rankles people. Of course those that do that will always fall back on the tired, you mistook what i said line.

NTamm1215 08-24-2012 07:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jms62 (Post 885855)
And as customers we have the right to criticize the product being delivered. And you being a racing insider is doing what racing insiders always do. Dismiss our complaint and talk down to us like we dont know what the hell we are talking about.
Of course, the irony is that Pat works for a company that has developed the most innovative and fan friendly technology in the game.

OldDog 08-24-2012 08:08 AM
Don't forget, fellow dark-state-ers, NBC is carrying these races live 4-6 PM.

Danzig 08-24-2012 09:00 AM
ok, question. do people want a good betting race? yes. is this a good betting race? i think it is.
now, of course one wants the big races to draw the big names, but in the end, don't you want a good betting race? obviously the race is a victim of the war of attrition. exactly what could nyra have done to get a better group? i think criticism of nyra in this case is unwarranted. to complain is to suggest there could have been something done. how could they have produced a better field quality-wise?

tywizard 08-24-2012 09:18 AM
Can we return to handicapping these racings instead of complaining? Someone will win each of them...I'd like to figure out who.:D


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