I don't buy that for a second. He ran against some very crazy pace scenarios after he returned from Dubai last year in his dirt races. They were all either insanely slow, or on one occasion, crazy fast. Neither one is very conducive to running big figures like he did as a three year old.

That said, he still won them all.

Chuck the guy race hereverywhere. Who knows how she comes back. I suggest he will parade her anywhere that there is dirt. And if we are luck maybe he will try her on turf.although if she was as good on turf he might get silly and try the Arc. Imagine ASS winning at Longchamps. Oye

And that makes him an alltime great?

We will see.

I dont understand why anyone would not want to see her run on polytrack but would want to see her run in a race and surface that she has no prayer on? At least Curlin was a horse with no distance limitations even though he probably would have struggled with soft turf too.

I never said he was an all time great. But he was certainly better than a pretty good horse. I imagine you would kill to have a pretty good horse, let alone one of Curlin's ability...as would any trainer.

Is it that hard to fathom that he really does hate synthetic surfaces and that he would stick to his word?

You make no sense.

No Jackson did which was the point of the original post. That any trainer would want to train a horse that made 10 million is besides the point. I find is amusing that less than a year ago Curlin's "fans" and connections were calling him the greatest horse since.... and yet here we are less than a year later and RA has seemingly passed him on the greatest horse measures. And you have to believe that besides recency that his flop in the BC has to play a factor in that. The truth is that he had a very nice career but never did any thing truly extraordinary.

Of course it does.

Beating Macho Again stamps your ticket as well.

Well there are a lot of all time greats out there then

Curlin was a top tier grade 1 horse and even a better talent. He was capable of extraordinary running. Grade 1 quality horses are rare enough he was certainly a cut above the average G 1 talent. And CJ or I will never or have ever called him an all time great. Rachel is without question an all time great. And it has absolutely nothing to do with beating Macho Again in the Woodward.

I'm sure that you will howl in protest but I dont think next year will go so swimmingly for her. I do predict that Jackson avoids 1 1/4 races all year. Hopefully SB and QR also stick around and stay healthy so we can have some semblance of an older horse division.

Which 10f races should she go in? I suggested starting her at GP at 8 in the GP handicap..Then look to the most prestigous mile race in America.. After that you need to start to get her a little break and maybe a softer spot against her own at 9..Remember there are two wonderful 3 year old fillies that maybe VERY worthy competition.. So going in the Phipps and then the Go for Wand are certainly reasonable especially if she is stretching out.. Then two for the next 3 should be strongly considered in the Whitney, Woodward, and JCGC.. Then the Classic at CD.. Who else has dirt?

I have no clue how she will fair next year. Sometimes they get better sometimes they would be better off in foal?

Would be hilarious if somehow SB can beat the Euros at Anita while the 'great' filly rests in her stall.



This is like the AFC champ boycotting the Super Bowl cuz it's on artificial turf. lol

I wouldnt mind Summer Bird or Zenyatta winning at all.. BTW that is "All Time Great Filly"

I have no doubt he hates synthetic surfaces, I'm sure alot owners and trainers hate synth, the point is some atleast try it because that is what you do with good horses you try it when it is on a big stage. Hey if you have the all world horse of 2009, then why not show some confidence and campaign her 1 more race instead of stopping her on Sept 5. Who in their right mind maps out a campaign and says the Woodward is the final race penciled in on the yr without a chance for ammendment? Does this make sense to you? If it does we live in different universes. You said I make no sense, then I'd like to refer to not making sense as being less gullable than some of the others that are all too happy to just lap up the reasons coming from the JJ camp. I find him somewhat disingenous, then I'm all too happy to be in the minority of the opinion on that one.

You can't say Rachel is an all-time great unless you say Curlin was an all-time great.

Curlin's best efforts were faster than Rachels.

Curlin beat much better horses.

Curlin carried more weight.

Curlin won bigger races and much more money.

Curlin could run 10f.

Curlin actually ran 5 races in 3 weeks.

Curlin even had a grade 1 turf placing.

Rachel and Curlin are not all-time greats. That label should only be used on horses like today's ARC winner who has beaten great competition at every distance. To put Curlin or Rachel in a category with Sea The Stars is insulting to him. He isn't exactly the type of horse that would need a weight break to barely beat Macho Again or Mine That Bird.

The guy bought the horse the first week in May you figure he mapped out a campaign??? Come on have a heart. They rushed her to the Preakness, drained the life out of her, rested her up crushed in the Goose, then finished up with Smashing wins against colts AGAIN and older horses..Who maps out 8 racetracks in one year for a 3 year old filly.. It was more of a circus act then campaign

All time great filly..I figured you realized Rachel was a female horse I apoliges..

oh. my. god.

Curlin also had testicles.

You mean all this time and no one told me horses are diffrent sexes.... that changes everything...

I think we need Dorothy, the Lion and Scarecrow for that to happen...she would have had 8 weeks to get ready for the BC, a man of Asmussen's training acumen has done far more with less time. As I said it was a brilliant preemptive strike by JJ for HOY, if she had lost the Woodward I wonder if the campaign would have been written in stone then?

One thing for sure was known when they bought her...She was never ever going to Santa Anita. So if that is mapping out a plan then the plan was to be as agressive as any owner has ever been with a 3 year old filly without ever considering runiing her on poly. If she would be ok on poly or not it really doesn't matter.

She won't be at Keeneland next year or Woodbine or AP unless they try her at those tracks on the grass..

and had she not been purchased, she wouldn't have run in the preakness, haskell, woodward, etc. in my opinion, we were given more of a treat by jackson buying her-she certainly wasn't going to the classic with her former owners either.

perhaps everyone should enjoy what she did, rather than moaning and complaining about what has been left undone. in her case, she has accomplished far more than many. i don't feel cheated in the least with her campaign this year.

She most likely wouldnt have run at any of those tracks anyway.

IF Summer Bird wins the BC Classic then He is HOY. I know RA has been the most exciting horse this year and really has been great for the sport but I'm sorry, Belmont, Travers, Jockey Club Gold Cup and Breeder's Cup Classic?
That's insane.

Curlin ran five races in three weeks? That sounds more like Kip Deville's yearly schedule.

Honestly, I don't give Summer Bird much of a shot at the Classic. If Ice and co. though the horse was a synthetic star, wouldn't we have seen him run on the stuff already?

Uh what would be the synthetic equal to Haskell, Travers or Gold Cup?

You had me through the word "star" and then lost it. Why would they run on the synth when he has proven he likes Belmont and dirt? What race was he supposed to run in instead of the Haskell, Travers, or JCGC?

The fact that they plan to cross enter him in the turf - especially considering how terribly he reportedly trained over the grass at Saratoga - probably isn't the best of signs.

I get what you are saying, but Ice said that he never trained well over synthetic. Back in the spring they experimented with turf to see if they could look at that race and while he didn't school well on turf either, I think Ice said he'd nominate for both the Classic and Turf.

Has there been any performance comparison of a sloppy track to the synthetcs? People compare the grass to the fake stuff, I wonder if a horse like Summer Bird who runs well on an off track can translate that to the synthetics.

He was actually with Sadler prior to going to Tim Ice and Sadler told the Jayaramans that he did not go well over synthetics at all.

NT

It's a tough call but if he SB wins the BC Classic(WHICH IS NO GUARANTEE) I agree with you, obviously Rachel's gender adds to her appeal but I'm not sure if it is FOY(Filly Of the Year) or HOY (Horse of the year) that voters will look at, I know it doesn't enter my equation if I were choosing. That is why we have a different award for Fillies and Mares. The quad of The Belmont-Travers-JCGC-Classic certainly is harder to achieve than The Oaks-Preakness-Haskell-Woodward in my opinion and if gender has no bearing at all Summer Bird should get the nod if he can close the deal in the Classic.

Respectfully, who friggin cares about HOY. Summer Bird seems like a very nice colt, Careless Jewel looks like a terrific filly, Icon Project could be a monster, Mine that Bird is a nice sort, and Quality Road seems like something that will be watching as well. BUT in 2009 (save Europe) there is only 1 horse that transcended racing. She is perhaps the greatest of her gender ever. She is spoken about in these terms by all thoses that have seen the past all time great filly's. Hence there is only 1 horse that could or should be HOY..Not that I give a hoot about the award.

seems like the oaks/preakness etc would be harder to achieve since one has to be a filly to run in the oaks. that in itself makes the other three a tremendous rarity for a filly to attempt, let alone win.
on it's own merits, summer birds four wins (should he win the classic, and i don't know that he will) are good, but his loss to rachel seals the deal for many.

rachel seemingly is a victim of 'what have you done for me lately-itis'. the longer it is since her last race, the more the memory of everything she has actually achieved will fade. a shame, because she's had a hell of a year.

In 30 years nobody will care

[quote]However history says that not since Easy Goer 20 years ago has any horse achieved the N.Y triple and if he does win the BC Classic it will be a first of it's kind in racing history, everyone keeps talking about Rachel from a historical point of view and rightly so, but I think Summer Bird deserves a bit of respect in that department also.

For me I respect what she has done, you have to be not a fan of racing to not respect her year, I just don't like how it is being portrayed that she beat Summer Bird at 1 1/8 at a point of time when he was still developing and she was at her peak and though we can debate that race till the cows come home, that race far suited her talents more than Summer Bird's. He lost fair and square, okay but he took her on when the Haskell suited her game to a tee, and due to the preemptive strike JJ had in mind for HOY, Summer Bird will not have a chance to avenge that loss. Dubious or not that is the way it is.

Curlin = Overrated 'roid freak…




GO SB! :tro: :D

For me he is definitely the hardest horse to figure out as we get closer to the BC because he is clearly the best dirt horse at the distance, but knowing that he didn't work well previously on the surface leaves so many questions.

Considering his running style I don't think he's going to be a good fit at all on synthetics. He is a grinder who doesn't particularly have a burst of speed.

Of the two Triple Crown race winners that will be in the BC I'd prefer Mine That Bird but, after all, he did finish last on that surface last October.

NT