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-   -   8/7 (DMR): Clement L. Hirsch S. (G1) (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37580)

ateamstupid 08-07-2010 09:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin (Post 679699)
What is so silly is that many of you keep making the same silly arguments that you were making last year. You all thought that she wasn't anything special because she wasn't beating much and she wasn't winning by big margins. You all thought she had little or no chance in the BC Classic.

After she stepped up and won the BC Classic, I would have thought that that would be enough for you to realize that you were wrong and that her winning margins and her level of competition are pretty much meaningless. Her win in the BC Classic proved that there's more in the tank than she's showing. And yet here you go again making this same argument that she must not be that good because she's beating mediocre competition by small margins. I just don't get it. The BC Classic proved that that argument is wrong and yet you guys still make that same argument.

I'm not saying that she's the greatest horse ever. I'm simply saying that you can't measure her based on these races because she is clearly capable of doing more as she proved in the BC Classic.
Holy crap, how do you people still not understand this?

We don't think she sucks. We think she's awesome, which is what makes her campaign even more disappointing and infuriating. She's not being allowed to prove herself and her greatness. One challenging race a year isn't acceptable for a supposed all-time great. We get sick of hearing about her incredible accomplishments when she's not doing anything historically significant except extending a winning streak that no one with a brain cares about. If she's capable of more, they should show it. She's going to go down in the history books as the biggest 'what if' horse whose career wasn't ended early.

This straw man argument about how anyone who isn't satisfied with these monotonous life-and-death victories over claimers automatically must think she's awful, it has to go. She's a beast, and she deserves applause. But stop telling me how legendary she is, when she's never allowed to prove it against top competition.

Left Bank 08-07-2010 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 679698)
Even if the race dynamics don't suit her - she just beat a horse who's lost 20 out of her last 21 races by about a neck.
I don't have PP's,is that true?

Rupert Pupkin 08-07-2010 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Operator (Post 679701)
The Streak is drivin' the haters crazy. :D
That is true. It is driving them crazy.

Some of what they are saying is true. She has faced some pretty weak fields in many of her races. But she also stepped up and beat the boys in the BC Classic. Was that BC Classic a really strong field? No, I wouldn't say so but it was a good enough field. You have to be a pretty darn good mare to step up and win that race.

herkhorse 08-07-2010 09:38 PM
If there is more in her tank why not use it? There is no shame in losing a race once in a while FFS! If she's really the best then run against the best and there would be no argument.Yeesh! One great race out of 17, cool!, and I'm far from a hater but get real. maggots, yea right. I love the horse but you are all nuts.

The Indomitable DrugS 08-07-2010 09:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Bank (Post 679708)
I don't have PP's,is that true?
The PP's of the 2nd place finisher are in the 'Presque Isle is rocking' thread.

Rupert Pupkin 08-07-2010 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 679706)
Holy crap, how do you people still not understand this?

We don't think she sucks. We think she's awesome, which is what makes her campaign even more disappointing and infuriating. She's not being allowed to prove herself and her greatness. One challenging race a year isn't acceptable for a supposed all-time great. We get sick of hearing about her incredible accomplishments when she's not doing anything historically significant except extending a winning streak that no one with a brain cares about. If she's capable of more, they should show it. She's going to go down in the history books as the biggest 'what if' horse whose career wasn't ended early.

This straw man argument about how anyone who isn't satisfied with these monotonous life-and-death victories over claimers automatically must think she's awful, it has to go. She's a beast, and she deserves applause. But stop telling me how legendary she is, when she's never allowed to prove it against top competition.
I'm not putting you in the category of the people who don't think she's great. You have been clear that you think she's great and you would like to see her in tougher races. I can see your point. I'm not arguing your point. I'm arguing with the people that are saying she must not be that good because she's beating mediocre horses by small margins.

CSC 08-07-2010 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Operator (Post 679701)
The Streak is drivin' the haters crazy. :D
One more race in So Cal before the BC SO? :D

ateamstupid 08-07-2010 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin (Post 679713)
I'm not putting you in the category of the people who don't think she's great. You have been clear that you think she's great and you would like to see her in tougher races. I can see your point. I'm not arguing your point. I'm arguing with the people that are saying she must not be that good because she's beating mediocre horses by small margins.
And I think that there are far fewer of those people than you are insinuating. Most people on here, I'd say, are in my camp.

The Indomitable DrugS 08-07-2010 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin (Post 679713)
I'm arguing with the people that are saying she must not be that good because she's beating mediocre horses by small margins.
Ok, She's clearly better than Secreatariat and Spectacular Bid? Is that better, or do I have to go way further and say that Pepper's Pride is also better than those two?

randallscott35 08-07-2010 09:48 PM
The truth is we will never know how good she is. I think we have to come to grips with that. As a board family

Rupert Pupkin 08-07-2010 09:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by herkhorse (Post 679710)
If there is more in her tank why not use it? There is no shame in losing a race once in a while FFS! If she's really the best then run against the best and there would be no argument.Yeesh! One great race out of 17, cool!, and I'm far from a hater but get real. maggots, yea right. I love the horse but you are all nuts.
She apparently did not ship great when she went to Oaklawn this year. The trip knocked her out and she lost weight. Knowing that, why would they want to ship her again this year before they ship her to Kentucky in November for the BC Classic? Why would they want to knock her out before the big race?

All horses are different. Some horses handle shipping really well and others don't. Going into this year, I think they were planning on shipping quite a bit this year. But since she didn't handle it particulary well, they're not going to do it again before the BC Classic. I guess there is a small chance that they will ship her for her final prep but I would say the odds are against it.

Rupert Pupkin 08-07-2010 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 679719)
Ok, She's clearly better than Secreatariat and Spectacular Bid? Is that better, or do I have to go way further and say that Pepper's Pride is also better than those two?
Who are you argung with? I didn't hear anyone say that she is better than Secretariat or Spectacular Bid.

The Pepper's Pride argument is a joke. How can you compare a mare that's won 16 graded stakes races in a row including the BC Classic to a mare that was runing against New Mexico breds? It's absurd.

Coach Pants 08-07-2010 09:56 PM
Was this race shown live on the major networks or ESPN?

No?

I wonder why. Maybe it's because true sports fans don't fall for exhibitions for filthy rich cowards to show off their "SUPER HORSE." They'd rather watch poker or bowling. At least in those sports you don't see the stars ducking each other on a regular basis.

It was fitting SHEriffs was wearing pink today.

Now continue fawning over this horse who barely beat nothing.

herkhorse 08-07-2010 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin (Post 679731)
Who are you argung with? I didn't hear anyone say that she is better than Secretariat or Spectacular Bid.

The Pepper's Pride argument is a joke. How can you compare a mare that's won 16 graded stakes races in a row including the BC Classic to a mare that was runing against New Mexico breds? It's absurd.
see? now you know how we feel. It's that simple.

Thunder Gulch 08-07-2010 09:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 679706)
Holy crap, how do you people still not understand this?

We don't think she sucks. We think she's awesome, which is what makes her campaign even more disappointing and infuriating. She's not being allowed to prove herself and her greatness. One challenging race a year isn't acceptable for a supposed all-time great. We get sick of hearing about her incredible accomplishments when she's not doing anything historically significant except extending a winning streak that no one with a brain cares about. If she's capable of more, they should show it. She's going to go down in the history books as the biggest 'what if' horse whose career wasn't ended early.

This straw man argument about how anyone who isn't satisfied with these monotonous life-and-death victories over claimers automatically must think she's awful, it has to go. She's a beast, and she deserves applause. But stop telling me how legendary she is, when she's never allowed to prove it against top competition.
Yeah, what he said. It's impossible to question what is a history of races against lesser competition without some of these jacks thinking you believe she sucks and taking offense to it. Clearly this is not the case. However, let's not confuse the ridiculous exhibitions vs allowance horses as legend making efforts. Is anyone seriously more impressed today by Zenyatta than Blame? No contest.

Rupert Pupkin 08-07-2010 09:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35 (Post 679724)
The truth is we will never know how good she is. I think we have to come to grips with that. As a board family
We will see how she runs in the BC Classic this year. That should give people a better idea.

10 pnt move up 08-07-2010 09:58 PM
Whats the most interesting thing about her PP's, other than being unbeaten, is that the pace calls of her races. I would imagine without looking 15 of the 18 have had below par pace calls, to be a closer into that dynamic is pretty amazing.

The poly crap junk just makes winning that much more of a crap shoot, what did drugs say the routing favorites have done on it?

randallscott35 08-07-2010 09:58 PM
The Shirreffs 3 calls a day to TVG lately about whether he will run or not is grotesque. I hope he never wins another race.

randallscott35 08-07-2010 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin (Post 679735)
We will see how she runs in the BC Classic this year. That should give people a better idea.
agreed but I think she will run in the Distaff

Rupert Pupkin 08-07-2010 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by randallscott35 (Post 679737)
The Shirreffs 3 calls a day to TVG lately about whether he will run or not is grotesque. I hope he never wins another race.
Why would you blame him? You should blame TVG. They are the ones that keep hounding him every day. It's not his fault.


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