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-   -   Deron Williams to Nets (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41126)

somerfrost 02-23-2011 02:08 PM

Deron Williams to Nets
 
not bad for "plan B"

Coach Pants 02-23-2011 02:13 PM

Yeah if you're mentally challenged.

Dahoss 02-23-2011 02:24 PM

It's a good thing he pushed Jerry Sloan out while he was still in Utah. :rolleyes:

somerfrost 02-23-2011 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach Pants (Post 755638)
Yeah if you're mentally challenged.

As is often the case, I don't understand your post...are you saying that acquiring one of the top PG's in the NBA is a bad deal?

dalakhani 02-23-2011 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost (Post 755651)
As is often the case, I don't understand your post...are you saying that acquiring one of the top PG's in the NBA is a bad deal?

If you think that trading away what amounts to what likely will be four high lottery picks (favors #3, Harris #5, GS pick, NJ pick) for a guy that might not even re-sign after next season is a good trade...

Give Utah credit. They took advantage of a desperate owner that was trying to save a little face.

Cannon Shell 02-23-2011 04:40 PM

I dont think this is a bad trade for NJ

They traded a top pick in a weak draft, a protected pick, a fair PG and a pretty soft looking Favors for one of the 3 best PG's in the league.

Sure it could backfire if Williams opt's to sign somewhere else but they gave up less than NY did for a better player.

Plus NJ has a lot of cap space and still has draft picks. They have been peddling Harris for 2 years and never found taker and Favors looks like he is not going to be an impact player, maybe ever.

ateamstupid 02-23-2011 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 755692)
I dont think this is a bad trade for NJ

They traded a top pick in a weak draft, a protected pick, a fair PG and a pretty soft looking Favors for one of the 3 best PG's in the league.

Sure it could backfire if Williams opt's to sign somewhere else but they gave up less than NY did for a better player.

Plus NJ has a lot of cap space and still has draft picks. They have been peddling Harris for 2 years and never found taker and Favors looks like he is not going to be an impact player, maybe ever.

Bingo. They had to hook a huge fish to build around and they did.

Cannon Shell 02-23-2011 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 755695)
Bingo. They had to hook a huge fish to build around and they did.

It is Billy King so I expect them to trade Lopez for Darko any minute now

golfer 02-23-2011 05:55 PM

Billy King's track record in Philadelphia gives me little reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. If Derrick Favors turns out to be as big a stiff as he appears right now, this is a good trade. If he doesn't, not so good. A great point guard makes everyone around him better, Devin Harris did not.

Cannon Shell 02-23-2011 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfer (Post 755729)
Billy King's track record in Philadelphia gives me little reason to give him the benefit of the doubt. If Derrick Favors turns out to be as big a stiff as he appears right now, this is a good trade. If he doesn't, not so good. A great point guard makes everyone around him better, Devin Harris did not.

Having watched Favors a few times recently it is hard to believe he will ever be more than a 14-8 type guy. He is like Joe Smith without the shooting range.

golfer 02-23-2011 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 755735)
Having watched Favors a few times recently it is hard to believe he will ever be more than a 14-8 type guy. He is like Joe Smith without the shooting range.

I haven't followed the Nets closely this year (why would anyone want to?), but from what I have read, Favors work ethic isn't exactly where it needs to be. He is just 19, so immaturity isn't unusual, and he may grow up mentally at some point. I guess that's up to him.

Cannon Shell 02-23-2011 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfer (Post 755744)
I haven't followed the Nets closely this year (why would anyone want to?), but from what I have read, Favors work ethic isn't exactly where it needs to be. He is just 19, so immaturity isn't unusual, and he may grow up mentally at some point. I guess that's up to him.

Well that and he is helpless more than 5 feet from the rim

Cannon Shell 02-23-2011 06:49 PM

http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011...oad/?eref=sihp

nice summary

freddymo 02-23-2011 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 755692)
I dont think this is a bad trade for NJ

They traded a top pick in a weak draft, a protected pick, a fair PG and a pretty soft looking Favors for one of the 3 best PG's in the league.

Sure it could backfire if Williams opt's to sign somewhere else but they gave up less than NY did for a better player.

Plus NJ has a lot of cap space and still has draft picks. They have been peddling Harris for 2 years and never found taker and Favors looks like he is not going to be an impact player, maybe ever.

If they dont sign him and lure additional 2012 free agents its a complete waste of time.

Cannon Shell 02-23-2011 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo (Post 755776)
If they dont sign him and lure additional 2012 free agents its a complete waste of time.

Have you seen them play lately?

King Glorious 02-24-2011 12:20 AM

Favors may become serviceable one day. Doesn't look like that day will come under this rookie contract though. Harris is a slightly above average pg, not worth near his salary. The draft has little to offer this year. The Nets could have stood pat and remained a lower level team or they could have made this move. In the short term, it improves them and even if Williams doesn't re-sign, it shows other potential free agents that NJ is serious about turning around and if they are able to keep him, he's a huge drawing card, along with a super-rich owner and a new arena. I didn't mention the move to NY because actually, where they are now is as close to Manhattan as Brooklyn is and as easy to get to, if not easier.

ateamstupid 02-24-2011 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious (Post 755804)
Favors may become serviceable one day. Doesn't look like that day will come under this rookie contract though. Harris is a slightly above average pg, not worth near his salary. The draft has little to offer this year. The Nets could have stood pat and remained a lower level team or they could have made this move. In the short term, it improves them and even if Williams doesn't re-sign, it shows other potential free agents that NJ is serious about turning around and if they are able to keep him, he's a huge drawing card, along with a super-rich owner and a new arena. I didn't mention the move to NY because actually, where they are now is as close to Manhattan as Brooklyn is and as easy to get to, if not easier.

Newark isn't a fraction of the tourist/rich person destination that Brooklyn is, and you're completely wrong about the distance. If the arena is ever built, it's 10 minutes from the city, maximum. You're not getting from NYC to Newark in 10 minutes unless you take an airplane.

freddymo 02-24-2011 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 755777)
Have you seen them play lately?

Yes and whats your point that he can fill 18k empty seats and make Brook Lopez rebound? Unless they resign him they will be hawking him a year from now. They do have money to spend but its not like they have a lot. They are 20 mil under the current cap assuming he gets max money how much do they have for star 2?

freddymo 02-24-2011 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 755807)
Newark isn't a fraction of the tourist/rich person destination that Brooklyn is, and you're completely wrong about the distance. If the arena is ever built, it's 10 minutes from the city, maximum. You're not getting from NYC to Newark in 10 minutes unless you take an airplane.

The train to Newark is what 20 minutes from Penn Station? Brooklyn will help the Nets for sure but its a Knick town.

MaTH716 02-24-2011 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo (Post 755843)
The train to Newark is what 20 minutes from Penn Station? Brooklyn will help the Nets for sure but its a Knick town.

The PATH from 33rd st to Newark is probably closer to a 35 minute ride (and the more I think about it, it's probably a bit longer than that).

The Nets really needed to make the move when they were competitive and the Knicks were in the midst of the Thomas regime. They had a real opportunity to take some of the Knicks fan base who were so disgusted with what was going on during then. All of a sudden there would have been a good home team to root for. But unfortunately for the Nets that boat has sailed. The Knicks are a good story again and everyone is jumping back on the bandwagon. The Nets lost a big chance and now will always be the red headed step child compared to the Knicks.

Coach Pants 02-24-2011 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaTH716 (Post 755850)
The PATH from 33rd st to Newark is probably closer to a 35 minute ride (and the more I think about it, it's probably a bit longer than that).

The Nets really needed to make the move when they were competitive and the Knicks were in the midst of the Thomas regime. They had a real opportunity to take some of the Knicks fan base who were so disgusted with what was going on during then. All of a sudden there would have been a good home team to root for. But unfortunately for the Nets that boat has sailed. The Knicks are a good story again and everyone is jumping back on the bandwagon. The Nets lost a big chance and now will always be the red headed step child compared to the Knicks.

Nah. The Russian will outsmart Dolan.

Knicks are going to be a disaster.

MaTH716 02-24-2011 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach Pants (Post 755851)
Nah. The Russian will outsmart Dolan.

Knicks are going to be a disaster.

Can't really argue that point, because it's 100% accurate.

But like I said there were alot Knicks fans (including myself, when I really follwed the NBA) were so sick and disgusted with Isiah/Dolan show, that at least me personally were rooting against them. They were such a hard team to like and you wanted to see Dolan get embarrassed and fire Isiah. And with every passing year of them staying and losing together, made you loathe and root against them even more. I really think that the Nets could have came in and made a big splash with that disgusted portion of the Knicks fan base. The fact that the Knicks are relavent again (before Carmello and being basically a .500 team) for the fans shows how desperate they have been over the last decade.

King Glorious 02-24-2011 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 755807)
Newark isn't a fraction of the tourist/rich person destination that Brooklyn is, and you're completely wrong about the distance. If the arena is ever built, it's 10 minutes from the city, maximum. You're not getting from NYC to Newark in 10 minutes unless you take an airplane.

Absolutely untrue. To get to where the new arena will be is much more than 10 minutes. And after just spending a month in NYC driving everyday between Newark and midtown, it never took me more than 15 minutes unless the traffic was really bad in which case, you could take the PATH and be there in about a 1/2 hour or less. I don't understand why people act like being across the river makes that much of a difference. Everyone accepts that the Giants and Jets are New York teams and they both play over in Jersey. The Pats are Boston's team and look how far they are from Boston. The Angels are marketed as the Los Angeles Angels and they are way out in Anaheim. Look at where the New York Islanders play.

MISTERGEE 02-24-2011 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 755735)
Having watched Favors a few times recently it is hard to believe he will ever be more than a 14-8 type guy. He is like Joe Smith without the shooting range.

I am trying to figure this trade out, if Favors is a 14 and 8 guy, and Harris averages about 8 assist a game and Williams over 9, and they get 4 1st rounders. How is this for sure a winner for Nj

MaTH716 02-24-2011 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious (Post 755858)
Absolutely untrue. To get to where the new arena will be is much more than 10 minutes. And after just spending a month in NYC driving everyday between Newark and midtown, it never took me more than 15 minutes unless the traffic was really bad in which case, you could take the PATH and be there in about a 1/2 hour or less. I don't understand why people act like being across the river makes that much of a difference. Everyone accepts that the Giants and Jets are New York teams and they both play over in Jersey. The Pats are Boston's team and look how far they are from Boston. The Angels are marketed as the Los Angeles Angels and they are way out in Anaheim. Look at where the New York Islanders play.

Don't know when you commute, but in the morning during rush hour it takes just 15 minutes to get on the Newark Bay Extention.
Also I think comparing basketball (where the majority of games are played at night) versus football (it's a whole day event) is like apples and oranges. While the Rock in Newark is an absolutely beautiful arena, most of the surrounding area is deplorable. Not to mention the lack of nice restauraunts/bars to go to before and after the game. Who really wants to sit and wait for the 40 minute Path ride back to the city after a Nets game in Newark?
Baseball is it's own animal too, I personally thought the Mets should have tried to move to the city.
As far as the Islanders go, they are pretty much a small market team that belongs for Long Island. Going out there really sucks.

Cannon Shell 02-24-2011 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MISTERGEE (Post 755867)
I am trying to figure this trade out, if Favors is a 14 and 8 guy, and Harris averages about 8 assist a game and Williams over 9, and they get 4 1st rounders. How is this for sure a winner for Nj

Because 14-8 guys can be had for 3 mill a year, not get paid like the 3rd player drafted (and he is a long way from 14-8 right now) and you are comparing the output of 2 guys to 1. Williams is a 21-10 guy who can also play defense and is one of the 10 best players in the game. They got 2 first rounders, one is a protected pick which may not even be theirs for 2 or 3 years.

Draft picks in the NBA are not like draft picks in the NFL. A lot of the better teams that draft late simply sell off their 1st rounders for virtually nothing so they dont have to pay 1st round money for 3 years to players who are unlikely to contribute. This years draft is atrocious.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2011/

Coach Pants 02-24-2011 12:49 PM

Terrence Jones and Brandon Knight are p.ussies.

ateamstupid 02-24-2011 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious (Post 755858)
Absolutely untrue. To get to where the new arena will be is much more than 10 minutes. And after just spending a month in NYC driving everyday between Newark and midtown, it never took me more than 15 minutes unless the traffic was really bad in which case, you could take the PATH and be there in about a 1/2 hour or less. I don't understand why people act like being across the river makes that much of a difference. Everyone accepts that the Giants and Jets are New York teams and they both play over in Jersey. The Pats are Boston's team and look how far they are from Boston. The Angels are marketed as the Los Angeles Angels and they are way out in Anaheim. Look at where the New York Islanders play.

Great, you spent a month driving in NYC. I've lived here my entire life and the arena site is 10 minutes from the city. Bridge traffic is a non-issue 95% of the time and the train is even easier. Newark is not nearly as close or convenient.

declansharbor 02-24-2011 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 755969)
Great, you spent a month driving in NYC. I've lived here my entire life and the arena site is 10 minutes from the city. Bridge traffic is a non-issue 95% of the time and the train is even easier. Newark is not nearly as close or convenient.

Roebling Tea Room and Enid's were my SHITE when I spent a week in Brooklyn in December.

What this has to do with the price of peanuts in China? I couldn't tell ya.

ateamstupid 02-24-2011 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by declansharbor (Post 755975)
Roebling Tea Room and Enid's were my SHITE when I spent a week in Brooklyn in December.

What this has to do with the price of peanuts in China? I couldn't tell ya.

Let me know if you make it again. There are a lot of other fun spots in that area I can put you on to.

dalakhani 02-24-2011 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 755906)
Because 14-8 guys can be had for 3 mill a year, not get paid like the 3rd player drafted (and he is a long way from 14-8 right now) and you are comparing the output of 2 guys to 1. Williams is a 21-10 guy who can also play defense and is one of the 10 best players in the game. They got 2 first rounders, one is a protected pick which may not even be theirs for 2 or 3 years.

Draft picks in the NBA are not like draft picks in the NFL. A lot of the better teams that draft late simply sell off their 1st rounders for virtually nothing so they dont have to pay 1st round money for 3 years to players who are unlikely to contribute. This years draft is atrocious.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2011/

The third player in the NBA draft makes 3.3 million dollars this year, 3.5 the following and then 3.8.

High draft picks in basketball are better than high draft picks in the NFL in a lot of ways but importantly because the salary scale for rookies in the NBA is much less than in the NFL.

Cannon Shell 02-24-2011 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani (Post 756009)
The third player in the NBA draft makes 3.3 million dollars this year, 3.5 the following and then 3.8.

High draft picks in basketball are better than high draft picks in the NFL in a lot of ways but importantly because the salary scale for rookies in the NBA is much less than in the NFL.

Those numbers are not accurate.
Favors contract is:
10/11-4133280
11/12-4443360
12/13-4753320*(team option)
13/14-6008006*(team option)
14/15-7882663*(qualifying offer)

That is a 27 million dollar commitment and I believe the way the salary cap works unless you renounce his rights you still get a cap hit even if you dont pick up the option.

The advantage that NFL teams have over NBA teams is they usually have 3 or 4 years worth of information on a player. For the top 10 picks the NBA scale is better but the odds of a late first rounder making a contribution are pretty slim and yet you still have to pay them for 3 years. 2nd round NBA players get a 2 year deal (if they make the team) for peanuts but are FA's in year 3. That is going to cost the Knicks with Fields who will be asking for a whole lot more than the 470k he makes this year or the 700k he makes next year.

Draft picks in basketball are less valuable because so few impact players are drafted.

GPK 02-24-2011 08:15 PM

Who wins in this deal?

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba...ory?id=6155082

Cannon Shell 02-24-2011 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPK (Post 756031)

If Perkins can stay healthy he is what OKC really needed especially to get through LA. Not sure why Boston made this move.

freddymo 02-25-2011 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell (Post 756037)
If Perkins can stay healthy he is what OKC really needed especially to get through LA. Not sure why Boston made this move.

They love Green and will resign Perkins years end.

BTW Billups is signed thru the year with a buyout. How are they strapped with Billups out?

blackthroatedwind 02-25-2011 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious (Post 755858)
Absolutely untrue. To get to where the new arena will be is much more than 10 minutes. And after just spending a month in NYC driving everyday between Newark and midtown, it never took me more than 15 minutes unless the traffic was really bad in which case, you could take the PATH and be there in about a 1/2 hour or less. I don't understand why people act like being across the river makes that much of a difference. Everyone accepts that the Giants and Jets are New York teams and they both play over in Jersey. The Pats are Boston's team and look how far they are from Boston. The Angels are marketed as the Los Angeles Angels and they are way out in Anaheim. Look at where the New York Islanders play.

This is not your finest work.

The Nets never had an identity. They will have one in Brooklyn. That move will be huge for them, especially if they have a decent team, and the Brooklyn location is tremendous. Not only is it by the LIRR hub, it is also next to probably the biggest subway hub in the entire NYC area. Virtually every subway goes right there. I live on the Upper West Side and can get there, door to door, in under 40 minutes. Trust me, I have gone to the Newark arena, and it is nice, but it's a MUCH bigger commute by public transportation.

Cannon Shell 02-25-2011 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freddymo (Post 756068)
They love Green and will resign Perkins years end.

BTW Billups is signed thru the year with a buyout. How are they strapped with Billups out?

They are alone in loving Green. Atrocious defender, too slow to guard 3's, too small to guard 4's. Has a decent offensive game but how does he fit into their plans this season and next? He and Davis are basically the same player. I can't imagine they will re-sign both. I know they got pretty good pick as well and if they were not one of the two or three favs for the title I could see what they are doing.

Re-signing Perkins next year doesn't help this year when the window of opportunity seems to be the biggest. And I dont see that happening anyway if they are going to take a run at Dwight Howard in 2012.

Billups wont be bought out because they wont be able to replace him with a suitable player without eating up significant cap space. The PG class of this summer is Earl Boykins and Carlos Arroyo. I can't imagine that they would look to clear cap space and punt next year as well. Remember they are going to have to pay Fields in 12/13 as well. They have 2 guys that make 40 million already and if the hard cap or a shrinking soft cap come into effect as pretty much everyone expects, they will have less money to fill out the roster. The other issue is they have almost nothing to maneuver with.
The problem with the trade that I have is IMO it was unnecessary and has left the Knicks with a far more difficult task than if they had simply allowed it to play out.

ateamstupid 02-25-2011 11:48 AM

I think the Celtics' front office was just tired of having Perkins be so useless on offense. He's a very good defender, but that's only worth so much when you're on the bench every 4th quarter. Green gives them five double-digit scorers and finally a legitimate backup to Pierce.

I'm not in love with getting smaller, but the offensive gains will be worth it IMO.

Cannon Shell 02-25-2011 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ateamstupid (Post 756105)
I think the Celtics' front office was just tired of having Perkins be so useless on offense. He's a very good defender, but that's only worth so much when you're on the bench every 4th quarter. Green gives them five double-digit scorers and finally a legitimate backup to Pierce.

I'm not in love with getting smaller, but the offensive gains will be worth it IMO.

IF Shaq comes back fairly healthy and can play more than 20 minutes a game. Supposedly they are dragging their feet on bringing him back to have him healthy for the playoffs but this leaves them really thin in the frontcourt if they make the finals against the Lakers

King Glorious 02-25-2011 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind (Post 756070)
This is not your finest work.

The Nets never had an identity. They will have one in Brooklyn. That move will be huge for them, especially if they have a decent team, and the Brooklyn location is tremendous. Not only is it by the LIRR hub, it is also next to probably the biggest subway hub in the entire NYC area. Virtually every subway goes right there. I live on the Upper West Side and can get there, door to door, in under 40 minutes. Trust me, I have gone to the Newark arena, and it is nice, but it's a MUCH bigger commute by public transportation.

I'm sorry that I always disappoint you. I do not think that the move to Brooklyn will be so great for them. I understand that it's going to be a magnificent arena and that they'll have every chance to be a big draw but I just don't think that it's going to happen. The city is still a Knicks city. Always will be. Again, I don't think that Newark is a totally different world than NYC. The Lakers moved from Inglewood to downtown LA and if they moved to Anaheim, they'd still be the same draw. If the Knicks didn't exist, NJ would be NY's team and people would have no problem crossing the river. With the cost of the new arena, the average fan won't be able to afford going and the high end people that they'd be hoping to attract are still going to be going to Knicks games. The Nets don't draw because they are the Nets, not because they are across the river. Bergen, Union, Hudson, and Essex counties are all very heavily populated and in NJ and they provide a huge fan base. If people wanted to see the Nets, they would. I don't think moving to Brooklyn will make them more attractive.


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