2022 Champion 3yr old

[FATPIANO]

Who deserves it more?
Epicenter
OR
Taiba
Pick one.

[King Glorious]

Resume, maybe Taiba.
Talent, maybe Epicenter.
Who I'd pick in a race over both of them? Charge It.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Who I'd pick in a race over both of them? Charge It.

You should have picked Rich Strike when all 3 of those faced each other; woulda made a ton of cash...

[cakes44]

Epicenter easy.

[FATPIANO]

Not so easy.
Taiba. Runs in 5 str8 grade 1 races
Wins 3, loses 1 by a head
Epicenter wins 1 grade 1. Several grade 2's

Hands down Taiba 3yr old Champion.
Kind of like Karma,
Medina Spirit should have been champion last year.
Same owner and trainer..

[pb72vett]

Hands down Baffrets horse he trains to win grade 1 races

If I had a vote I would choose TAIBA.

[moses]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

Not so easy.
Taiba. Runs in 5 str8 grade 1 races
Wins 3, loses 1 by a head
Epicenter wins 1 grade 1. Several grade 2's

Hands down Taiba 3yr old Champion.
Kind of like Karma,
Medina Spirit should have been champion last year.
Same owner and trainer..

Relying on the grade of the race as your only argument is silly. If you want to make a case for Taiba over Epicenter, you should let us know who he beat — which he did beat some solid horses this year.

Does anyone believe that Taiba’s “Grade 1” win in the Santa Anita derby, for example, was a better accomplishment than any of Epicenter’s Grade 2 wins or even Grade 1 place finishes?

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by moses

Relying on the grade of the race as your only argument is silly. If you want to make a case for Taiba over Epicenter, you should let us know who he beat — which he did beat some solid horses this year.

Does anyone believe that Taiba’s “Grade 1” win in the Santa Anita derby, for example, was a better accomplishment than any of Epicenter’s Grade 2 wins or even Grade 1 place finishes?

For a horse to win the grade 1 Santa Anita Derby in his 2nd start is truly amazing 👏

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

For a horse to win the grade 1 Santa Anita Derby in his 2nd start is truly amazing 👏

Yep; and confirmed the form by beating both Happy Jack and Messier right back in the KY Derby.

He also one upped the great Midnight Interulde, who needed 3 starts to break his maiden before winning the 2011 SA Derby next out.

Taiba finished better than him in the KY Derby, too...

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Yep; and confirmed the form by beating both Happy Jack and Messier right back in the KY Derby.

He also one upped the great Midnight Interulde, who needed 3 starts to break his maiden before winning the 2011 SA Derby next out.

Taiba finished better than him in the KY Derby, too...

Okay okay okay
Taiba
Wins his maiden at 6 furlongs
2nd start wins Grade 1 Santa Anita Derby
3rd start Kentucky Derby finished off the board (this race was just too soon for a horse with only 2 lifetime starts)
Every other start was in grade 1 races,
Wins 2. And loses 1 by a head, and finishes 3rd to Flightline( AN OLDER HORSE FOR THE AGES)
Draw a line through Kentucky Derby, and look at overall record and what do you see?
I see a very special horse that is clearly the Champion 3yr old of 2022

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by moses

Relying on the grade of the race as your only argument is silly. If you want to make a case for Taiba over Epicenter, you should let us know who he beat — which he did beat some solid horses this year.

Does anyone believe that Taiba’s “Grade 1” win in the Santa Anita derby, for example, was a better accomplishment than any of Epicenter’s Grade 2 wins or even Grade 1 place finishes?

If you're going to say that about the Santa Anita Derby, which I'm not arguing was a great race, don't you then open up the discussion to the quality of what Epicenter was beating in Louisiana? It really wasn't much different.

If you then look at what Epicenter beat in the Travers, weren't those the same two horses that Taiba beat in Pennsylvania? And although it was beyond his best distance, Jack Christopher ran a respectable race in the Haskell and he was also beaten by Taiba and I think he's the best horse that either of them beat outside of (and maybe including) Cyberknife.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

Okay okay okay
Taiba
Wins his maiden at 6 furlongs
2nd start wins Grade 1 Santa Anita Derby
3rd start Kentucky Derby finished off the board (this race was just too soon for a horse with only 2 lifetime starts)
Every other start was in grade 1 races,
Wins 2. And loses 1 by a head, and finishes 3rd to Flightline( AN OLDER HORSE FOR THE AGES)
Draw a line through Kentucky Derby, and look at overall record and what do you see?
I see a very special horse that is clearly the Champion 3yr old of 2022

The whole "special horse" for winning the SA Derby-thing loses significance when in the very next start the excuse is "too soon".

Kermit the Frog on a bike could have run 3rd in the 2022 BC Classic.

Only 2 horses have come out of Taiba's wins to subsequently take a graded stakes. Both were Grade 3 and both were in the last couple of weeks. One More Bid, who was an also-ran in Taiba's debut, won the lowly turf stakes on SA opening day and Skippylongstocking won the Harlan's Holiday.

Epicenter dominated all the relevant 3yos at some point in the year, some multiple times.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If you're going to say that about the Santa Anita Derby, which I'm not arguing was a great race, don't you then open up the discussion to the quality of what Epicenter was beating in Louisiana? It really wasn't much different.

Yep; In the SA Derby, Taiba beat Messier who hasn't been closer than 20 lengths in subsequent starts; Forbidden Kingdom who has bombed in all subsequent starts; and 3 horses that have only been capable of winning a single allowance race in subsequent starts (Happy Jack, Armagnac, and Win the Day).

Epicenter, meanwhile, in his LA starts beat: Rich Strike (KY Derby), Cyberknife (AR Derby, Haskell), Pappacap (G1/G2 placed), Smile Happy (G1 placed), Zandon (Blue Grass), Tawny Port (Lexington, Ohio Derby), Slow Down Andy (Sunland Derby, DM Derby, multiple G1 placed), Rattle N Roll (American Derby, St Louis Derby, Oklahoma Derby).

In those races, Epicenter also defeated subsequent or recent allowance winners Zozos, Kupuna, Pioneer of Medina, and Galt, all of whom may progress into top horses in the older horse division this year.

[moses]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If you're going to say that about the Santa Anita Derby, which I'm not arguing was a great race, don't you then open up the discussion to the quality of what Epicenter was beating in Louisiana? It really wasn't much different.

If you then look at what Epicenter beat in the Travers, weren't those the same two horses that Taiba beat in Pennsylvania? And although it was beyond his best distance, Jack Christopher ran a respectable race in the Haskell and he was also beaten by Taiba and I think he's the best horse that either of them beat outside of (and maybe including) Cyberknife.

I’m perfectly fine opening up that discussion. I’d much rather talk about who a horse beat than what grade he ran in. I think Rollo covers why Epicenter had a better year than Taiba.