Class of Derby sires

[somerfrost]

Here is an interesting list from Dr Roman's site regarding the class of the sires of Derby winners from 1940-2007:
Classic Winners 19 27.9%
Grade 1 Stakes Winners 29 42.6%
Grade 2 Stakes Winners 3 4.4%
Grade 3 Stakes Winners 1 1.5%
Listed Stakes Winners 14 20.6%
Stakes-Placed Winners 1 1.5%
Unraced 1 1.5%
Total 68 100%

Sorta interesting for those wishing to disregard breeding, 97% (66-68) were stake winners, 70.5% were either Classic or G1 winners.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Wow, so you mean good horses produce good horses? Hmmm, interesting concept. I'm sure these numbers take into account that grade 1 winners tend to get most of the good mares and such.
I know your response already, "I just post them, use them as you will."

Actually, I was just posting this for those who believe breeding is unimportant, of course I believe that good horses produce good horses. Why would these stats "take into account" anything? They simply are data regarding the class of Derby Winner's sires???

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Please.

Again...what are you saying? The numbers are simple data, nothing more nothing less. They don't have to "take into account" anything in the state I present them (as data). Obviously sires that do well on the track and are well-bred themselves will get the best mares but that has nothing to do with the data.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Again...what are you saying? The numbers are simple data, nothing more nothing less. They don't have to "take into account" anything in the state I present them (as data). Obviously sires that do well on the track and are well-bred themselves will get the best mares but that has nothing to do with the data.

That has everything to do with the data. . .

Did you know that only 3 sires produced the entire breed? I wonder if you knew that.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by easy goer

Did you know that only 3 sires produced the entire breed? I wonder if you knew that.

I would hope everyone knew that:
Darley Arabian
Byerly Turk
Godolphin Barb

The Darley Arabian's line through his great great grandson, Eclipse is the most common. Matchem, the grandson of the Barb produced the line that gave us the likes of Man O War and Seabiscuit while Herod the great great grandson of the Turk has given us such stars as Ambiorix, Ambehaving and My Babu.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

That has everything to do with the data. . .

It depends on what you use the data for...I used it just to show folks that breeding is important when looking at the Derby. If you use that to "prove" that only grade one winners make good sires then you have to figure in the predisposition of breeders to breed to same instead of horses with lesser records. In other words, if I'm a breeder and I want to breed a class mare, I need to understand that this data is effected by opportunity...Ole Bob Bowers
might just produce a runner despite his lack of a grade one win. But, if I'm looking at Derby horses to pick a winner, it doesn't matter so much about why the data is what it is...it just is! Again, some no-name stallion that never broke his maiden COULD produce a winner but the likelihood is small BECAUSE he wouldn't have had the opportunity to cover a top mare! So, as a bettor, I don't care so much why the data is as it is...I just care what it is!