baze/laffit....who will you call better

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

im of the belief that laffits record will go down.but he has done more by far than baze ..riding 4 horse fields.. he "laffit" has more graded wins and riden the best horses of his span in racing.. baze should not be thought of in the same light as laffit or the shoe....

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

im of the belief that laffits record will go down.but he has done more by far than baze ..riding 4 horse fields.. he "laffit" has more graded wins and riden the best horses of his span in racing.. baze should not be thought of in the same light as laffit or the shoe....

Laffit is one of the all time greats, top 5 at least, probably top 3.
Baze is a different kind of story. The ultimate big fish in a small pond.
Lots of 12-15% riders over the years in NY and Socal could have gone to tracks at a level of Nocal and ridden their choice of mounts in every race.
Baze does deserve credit for his hard work and consistency shown at the level of track hes chosen to ride at.
But there is no comparison, anyone who ever saw Laffit ride back in his prime knows that there never has been and never will be a stronger jockey who sat in a saddle. His strength was incredible. He was also incredibly intelligent in the saddle.
Angel was the craftiest in the saddle, no doubt, but he wasn't quite as strong as Laffit. Hard to seperate those two on who was better. A dead heat in my mind. Bailey was as good as those guys for a while, but not for the same period of time. He did however go out at a higher level than those two did.
Chris McCarron would be the fourth great I ever personally saw, in his prime he always made the right move and his agility and teh way he switched in the blink of an eye without missing a signle beat to left handed stick down the lane was something to see.
Those are the four guys I've witnessed who were "all time greats".
I know the Day and Stevens fans will shout at this, but Stevens didn't do it long enough or consistently enough to join those ranks in my opinion. He may have had the talent level, but injuries and venue changes which disrupted his continuity cost him. Day was incredible as well, but so much of his career was at "b" level tracks that to put him with guys who rode at nothing but the hardest venues for almost their entire careers would be very hard to do.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

yes i didnt mean to discount baze hard work...but..as you said mike..

Oh, and Chris Antley had more natural talent than anyone who ever sat in a saddle. He was the "perfect rider" as perfect as perfect gets in this game until his personal problems got him.
Wish their were easily accessed tapes of his riding before the problems hit him. Perfect posture in the saddle, brute strength, incredibly agile, and had that save ground but swing out for the stretch drive so as not to get pinned move down to a science. He was impossible to beat on the best horse, impossible.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Oh, and Chris Antley had more natural talent than anyone who ever sat in a saddle. He was the "perfect rider" as perfect as perfect gets in this game until his personal problems got him.
Wish their were easily accessed tapes of his riding before the problems hit him. Perfect posture in the saddle, brute strength, incredibly agile, and had that save ground but swing out for the stretch drive so as not to get pinned move down to a science. He was impossible to beat on the best horse, impossible.

Wow. We actually can agree about jockeys. Chris was also a very sweet person. It's sickening that his "demons" took over his talent and life.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by oracle80

Laffit is one of the all time greats, top 5 at least, probably top 3.
Baze is a different kind of story. The ultimate big fish in a small pond.
Lots of 12-15% riders over the years in NY and Socal could have gone to tracks at a level of Nocal and ridden their choice of mounts in every race.
Baze does deserve credit for his hard work and consistency shown at the level of track hes chosen to ride at.
But there is no comparison, anyone who ever saw Laffit ride back in his prime knows that there never has been and never will be a stronger jockey who sat in a saddle. His strength was incredible. He was also incredibly intelligent in the saddle.
Angel was the craftiest in the saddle, no doubt, but he wasn't quite as strong as Laffit. Hard to seperate those two on who was better. A dead heat in my mind. Bailey was as good as those guys for a while, but not for the same period of time. He did however go out at a higher level than those two did.
Chris McCarron would be the fourth great I ever personally saw, in his prime he always made the right move and his agility and teh way he switched in the blink of an eye without missing a signle beat to left handed stick down the lane was something to see.
Those are the four guys I've witnessed who were "all time greats".
I know the Day and Stevens fans will shout at this, but Stevens didn't do it long enough or consistently enough to join those ranks in my opinion. He may have had the talent level, but injuries and venue changes which disrupted his continuity cost him. Day was incredible as well, but so much of his career was at "b" level tracks that to put him with guys who rode at nothing but the hardest venues for almost their entire careers would be very hard to do.

Spot On,Oracle! Kudos for adding McCarron....I don't think he really ever got his due.

[The Bid]

Where does Ray Ganpath fit into this discussion?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Where does Ray Ganpath fit into this discussion?

Ray always gets a raw deal.

Personally, I have taken the GanPATH to victory on numerous occasions.

[CapperZeke]

Ray finished in a dead heat with Jean Luc.

[The Bid]

Im not sure Baze and Pincay are in the same league. Infact they arent, Baze rides in the minors, and Pincay rode with very good riders.

Ganpath, never been a real big fan

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

lest we forget...juvinal diaz.../earlie "go to the whip" fires./joe rocco's of the world...

[LARHAGE]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

im of the belief that laffits record will go down.but he has done more by far than baze ..riding 4 horse fields.. he "laffit" has more graded wins and riden the best horses of his span in racing.. baze should not be thought of in the same light as laffit or the shoe....

I don't think ANYONE seriously thinks Baze is superior to Pincay simply because he has more victories. The fact of the matter is Baze earned his wins in the minor leagues against third tier riders. I can appreciate the amount as it is a very impressive number no matter how you slice it, but in light of the fact it was achieved in the minor leagues it will always be perceived as such by true horse racing fans.

[dellinger63]

OK let's create some disturbance...

IMO the best jock, is currently riding and his last name rhymes with Migliore. He doesn't rank with shoe, laffit, angel yet, but bar injury he will.

Hail Lafranco

The stat that stands out in my mind between Laffit and Baze is that Laffit has won around $100mm more than Baze. That is a HUGE amount. Baze is wonderful and it good to see a person stay true to his roots. He is from No Cal and never did see a reason to leave. Why would he. He isnt a glory seeking man. He doesnt need the accolades. All he wants to do is ride and spend time with his family. I think his story is wonderful. He should be praised for being able to ride 9,000 winners. That is amazing no matter where you are.

As far as talent, Laffit is above Baze. Laffit was a spetacular jockey. He was so smooth and so strong in the saddle. Just a handful of jocks has the ability like Laffit.

Here is a list of my top 5 jocks and this isn't in any order because how could you really seperate them. I will also post a little "tid-bit" about each.

Laffit - donated his winnings on opening day at the Oak Tree meet to families of Sept 11

Antley - 1990 was the leading jockey at Saratoga. He was the second of only three riders to beat out Cordero for this honor in a 16 year period.

Day - Where do you begin--4 BCC victories, 9 TC wins, 12 BC wins - Day orginally wanted to be a rodeo cowboy. Thankfully for us he didnt.

Cordero - 3 time Derby winner--making him 1 of only 4 jocks to win the Derby 3 times. He is the only Puerto Rican jockey to win all 3 TC races.

Shoe - 11 TC wins - 4 Derby, 2 Preakness, 5 Belmont. He will forever be known for his 1957 Derby Ride.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

The stat that stands out in my mind between Laffit and Baze is that Laffit has won around $100mm more than Baze. That is a HUGE amount. Baze is wonderful and it good to see a person stay true to his roots. He is from No Cal and never did see a reason to leave. Why would he. He isnt a glory seeking man. He doesnt need the accolades. All he wants to do is ride and spend time with his family. I think his story is wonderful. He should be praised for being able to ride 9,000 winners. That is amazing no matter where you are.

As far as talent, Laffit is above Baze. Laffit was a spetacular jockey. He was so smooth and so strong in the saddle. Just a handful of jocks has the ability like Laffit.

Here is a list of my top 5 jocks and this isn't in any order because how could you really seperate them. I will also post a little "tid-bit" about each.

Laffit - donated his winnings on opening day at the Oak Tree meet to families of Sept 11

Antley - 1990 was the leading jockey at Saratoga. He was the second of only three riders to beat out Cordero for this honor in a 16 year period.

Day - Where do you begin--4 BCC victories, 9 TC wins, 12 BC wins - Day orginally wanted to be a rodeo cowboy. Thankfully for us he didnt.

Cordero - 3 time Derby winner--making him 1 of only 4 jocks to win the Derby 3 times. He is the only Puerto Rican jockey to win all 3 TC races.

Shoe - 11 TC wins - 4 Derby, 2 Preakness, 5 Belmont. He will forever be known for his 1957 Derby Ride.

He left there.I remember the send off they gave him in '88.He couldn't make it happen in SOCAL.I give him credit for being a very hard worker.He has had to ride a lot of cheap horses in some crap weather conditions.He rides well up there,but this is about hard work over 32 years.I think we can give him credit for that without putting him on the same level as Laffit.Anyways,let this be over.I can't take those teeth glaring back at me much longer.