Maiden Derby winners

[The Indomitable DrugS]

For the people who think that breeding microscopic size foal crops, somehow makes for deeper and more competitive top class racing and more talented horses.....

* The 1933 Kentucky Derby was won by a horse named Broker's Tip. Not only did he win the race as a maiden---but, he never won another race the rest of his career. His lifetime record was 14-1-2-1. His Derby is known as "the fightin' Derby" because his rider, and the rider of the 2nd place finisher were literally fighting with each other during the stretch run.

That same year, the legendary Seabiscuit was foaled. He lost five straight races at Rockingham Park, to run his lifetime record to 0-for-17, but heck, he sure did improve from there!

As for our first triple crown winner Sir Barton---he was 0-for-6 as a 2-year-old, and made his 3yo debut in the Kentucky Derby off an 8 month layoff. He was only entered by his trainer to be a rabbit for stablemate Billy Kellly.

Well, he was gunned to the lead, and never stopped. Billy Kelly finished 2nd. He won the Preakness 4 days later, the Withers 10 days after that, and than the Belmont Stakes.

Not that Seabiscuit, Sir Barton, and Billy Kelly weren't fine horses---however, it is impossible to do stuff like today. The horses are simply much more talented overall....and there is a much greater volume of them in training.

If a trainer even tried to run a maiden in the Kentucky Derby, off an 8 month layoff, simply to serve the purpose as a rabbit for his stablemate---not only would that horse not become a triple crown winner, but his trainer would be knocked pretty damn hard by the press.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

For the people who think that breeding microscopic size foal crops, somehow makes for deeper and more competitive top class racing and more talented horses.....

* The 1933 Kentucky Derby was won by a horse named Broker's Tip. Not only did he win the race as a maiden---but, he never won another race the rest of his career. His lifetime record was 14-1-2-1. His Derby is known as "the fightin' Derby" because his rider, and the rider of the 2nd place finisher were literally fighting with each other during the stretch run.

That same year, the legendary Seabiscuit was foaled. He lost five straight races at Rockingham Park, to run his lifetime record to 0-for-17, but heck, he sure did improve from there!

As for our first triple crown winner Sir Barton---he was 0-for-6 as a 2-year-old, and made his 3yo debut in the Kentucky Derby off an 8 month layoff. He was only entered by his trainer to be a rabbit for stablemate Billy Kellly.

Well, he was gunned to the lead, and never stopped. Billy Kelly finished 2nd. He won the Preakness 4 days later, the Withers 10 days after that, and than the Belmont Stakes.

Not that Seabiscuit, Sir Barton, and Billy Kelly weren't fine horses---however, it is impossible to do stuff like today. The horses are simply much more talented overall....and there is a much greater volume of them in training.

If a trainer even tried to run a maiden in the Kentucky Derby, off an 8 month layoff, simply to serve the purpose as a rabbit for his stablemate---not only would that horse not become a triple crown winner, but his trainer would be knocked pretty damn hard by the press.

Broker's Tip, I believe is also one of the few Thoroughbreds buried at Churchill Downs.

Following is the photograph taken of that "Fighting Finish", for those who haven't seen it:

http://www.spiletta.com/UTHOF/brokerstip.jpg

I believe this photograph was captured when a down and out drunken photographer woke up from passing out in the infield right next to the finish line and looked up just in time. This story was included with several other short stories in the book; Finished Lines.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

There was a third maiden who won the Kentucky Derby, does anyone remember his name and what year he was from?

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

There was a third maiden who won the Kentucky Derby, does anyone remember his name and what year he was from?

Stone Street in 1908?

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

There was a third maiden who won the Kentucky Derby, does anyone remember his name and what year he was from?

Buchanan - 1884

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

There was a third maiden who won the Kentucky Derby, does anyone remember his name and what year he was from?

Giacomo?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

He won his 2nd career start by 10 lengths, in hand throughout.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

He won his 2nd career start by 10 lengths, in hand throughout.

Well, obviously! He is one of TIDS's 4 "trend" horses, so he had to have won his 2nd career start by daylight!

--Dunbar

[mark2061mn]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

There was a third maiden who won the Kentucky Derby, does anyone remember his name and what year he was from?

giacamo?

[Cajungator26]

I'm pretty sure Giacomo had won one start prior to the derby.

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I'm pretty sure Giacomo had won one start prior to the derby.

Young Jock was a maiden. He had two other starts, best he had done was second prior to the Kentucky Derby.

He only won one other race after the Derby.

Or maybe this was just at 3??? NTRA has him at only 2 other starts before Derby. ???

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

For the people who think that breeding microscopic size foal crops, somehow makes for deeper and more competitive top class racing and more talented horses.....

* The 1933 Kentucky Derby was won by a horse named Broker's Tip. Not only did he win the race as a maiden---but, he never won another race the rest of his career. His lifetime record was 14-1-2-1. His Derby is known as "the fightin' Derby" because his rider, and the rider of the 2nd place finisher were literally fighting with each other during the stretch run.

That same year, the legendary Seabiscuit was foaled. He lost five straight races at Rockingham Park, to run his lifetime record to 0-for-17, but heck, he sure did improve from there!

As for our first triple crown winner Sir Barton---he was 0-for-6 as a 2-year-old, and made his 3yo debut in the Kentucky Derby off an 8 month layoff. He was only entered by his trainer to be a rabbit for stablemate Billy Kellly.

Well, he was gunned to the lead, and never stopped. Billy Kelly finished 2nd. He won the Preakness 4 days later, the Withers 10 days after that, and than the Belmont Stakes.

Not that Seabiscuit, Sir Barton, and Billy Kelly weren't fine horses---however, it is impossible to do stuff like today. The horses are simply much more talented overall....and there is a much greater volume of them in training.

If a trainer even tried to run a maiden in the Kentucky Derby, off an 8 month layoff, simply to serve the purpose as a rabbit for his stablemate---not only would that horse not become a triple crown winner, but his trainer would be knocked pretty damn hard by the press.

Again, citing a couple isolated examples proves nothing! There have always been, and probably always will be horses that take awhile to "get it"....John Henry was bought for what? He turned his career around rather nicely didn't he? Then there was that horse who raced awhile and ran awful until they switched surfaces...he turned out ok...Cigar was his name I think! Recently there was a claimer who has done ok too...named Lava Man. Real Quiet and that horse of DWL's, had Antley given him a better ride in the Belmont...Also, when Sir Barton won the TC, there was no such thing...a decade later a NY writer coined the phrase, MOW's conections felt the Derby wasn't worth a trip "west". Maidens win stake races, it happens...with or without a buzzer!

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

John Henry was bought for what? He turned his career around rather nicely didn't he?

Yes. But, John Henry didn't win his first Grade 1 race until he was a 5-year-old. He didn't exactly go from struggling at the bottom, to the best around, over night.

And, If you assume that only the best horses were being bred to each other (they weren't) back when the foal crops were so small---than there is no way John Henry would have existed.

Spectacular Bid's 2nd dam was a very mediocre horse, and his dam raced on the Northern California fair circuits. He's another that wouldn't have existed.

Secretariat's dam never won a race, but she came from a very good family. Affirmed's dam wasn't much horse, and she had eight siblings, none of which earned black type. Cigar's dam ran 7 times and never won.

Seattle Slew was sold for like 16K or something at auction.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yes. But, John Henry didn't win his first Grade 1 race until he was a 5-year-old. He didn't exactly go from struggling at the bottom, to the best around, over night.

And, If you assume that only the best horses were being bred to each other (they weren't) back when the foal crops were so small---than there is no way John Henry would have existed.

Spectacular Bid's 2nd dam was a very mediocre horse, and his dam raced on the Northern California fair circuits. He's another that wouldn't have existed.

Secretariat's dam never won a race, but she came from a very good family. Affirmed's dam wasn't much horse, and she had eight siblings, none of which earned black type. Cigar's dam ran 7 times and never won.

Seattle Slew was sold for like 16K or something at auction.

Ah, but those are modern examples you are using! And regarding breeding lines if you equate "best" to track performance, you are way off base...many Blue Hens did little on the track, breeding is a lot more complicated than simply looking at records of dam and sire.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

For the people who think that breeding microscopic size foal crops, somehow makes for deeper and more competitive top class racing and more talented horses.....

* The 1933 Kentucky Derby was won by a horse named Broker's Tip. Not only did he win the race as a maiden---but, he never won another race the rest of his career. His lifetime record was 14-1-2-1. His Derby is known as "the fightin' Derby" because his rider, and the rider of the 2nd place finisher were literally fighting with each other during the stretch run.

That same year, the legendary Seabiscuit was foaled. He lost five straight races at Rockingham Park, to run his lifetime record to 0-for-17, but heck, he sure did improve from there!

As for our first triple crown winner Sir Barton---he was 0-for-6 as a 2-year-old, and made his 3yo debut in the Kentucky Derby off an 8 month layoff. He was only entered by his trainer to be a rabbit for stablemate Billy Kellly.

Well, he was gunned to the lead, and never stopped. Billy Kelly finished 2nd. He won the Preakness 4 days later, the Withers 10 days after that, and than the Belmont Stakes.

Not that Seabiscuit, Sir Barton, and Billy Kelly weren't fine horses---however, it is impossible to do stuff like today. The horses are simply much more talented overall....and there is a much greater volume of them in training.

If a trainer even tried to run a maiden in the Kentucky Derby, off an 8 month layoff, simply to serve the purpose as a rabbit for his stablemate---not only would that horse not become a triple crown winner, but his trainer would be knocked pretty damn hard by the press.

its not that smaller crops make for more competitive racing...but breeding an outstanding individual back then i feel was a bigger accomplishment than now. they've always said when a horse has NO competition, than he competes with the clock. man o war did that and then some. there's a reason he is still held in reverence even today-and there's a reason the awards given to the top horses every year is called the Eclipse.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

they've always said when a horse has NO competition, than he competes with the clock. man o war did that and then some.

Man O' War was foaled in 1917, he was one of just 1,680 race horses foaled that year. That is the 2nd smallest foal crop of any year in the entire 1900s. Only the crop of 1919, which had just 15 fewer horses, was smaller.

Now, lets say that half of the 1,680 were males. So, we'd have 840 male foals in his crop. Of those 840---I bet you a surprsing percentage never ran a single race in their career. However, I don't have the numbers to that, so I can't say how many did.

A record 463,827 race horses were foaled in the 1980's. Just 18,857 were foaled in the 1910's. On the Blood Horse's List for top 100 of the century, ZERO horses foaled in the 1980's made the top thirty!!

Man O' War made 11 starts as a 3-year-old. In those 11 starts he beat fields of 8, 2, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 1, 1, 3, 1

He was simply just MUCH the best of a handful of horses--and his connections adoritly avoided a showdown with the best horse in the land outside of his crop.

In Man O' War's entire racing career---he beat a GRAND TOTAL OF TWO horses that weren't from his foal crop...and both of them in match races, where he was able to use his superior early speed to his advantage...and get loose early leads.

I guess I'm supposed to consider him the #1 horse of the century because he once ran a 1 1/4 in 2:01 4/5ths? Or 1 1/2 miles in 2:28 4/5ths? The fastest six furlongs he ran was when he was beaten a half length to upset in 1:11 1/5ths. Oh yeah, we also have to assume the tracks were 20 lengths slower back than.

[Cajungator26]

While I'm not qualified to speak of Man O' War's race record, I'm sure glad he was around...

Without him, we wouldn't have gotten War Admiral, who in turn sired Busanda, dam of Buckpasser, who sired Relaxing, who was the dam of one of my favorite horses of all time... EASY GOER.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Easy Goer was my favorite horse when I first started watching racing.

He was from the largest foal crop (1986) of all-time.

One of three no doubt about it all-time GREAT horses from that crop. The others being Sunday Silence and Kentucky-bred Nashwan. Nashwan is the only horse in history to win Britan's four most important races in the same season, they being the 2K Guineas, Derby, Eclipse, and King George.

Off the top of my head, others from that crop include: King Glorious, Breeders Cup Classic winner, and BC Sprint 3rd Black Tie Affair, 12 furlong world record holder Hawkster, The great filly sprinter Safely Kept, Prized (who made his career debut on grass in the BC Turf and won it) There were some very good horses from obscure regions as well...like a Clever Trevor, who ran a solid 2nd to Easy Goer in the Travers after winning like 10-of-14. Western Playboy set a track record at Turfway in the Spiral and won the PA Derby by about 20 lengths. Flying Contentinal was an excellent horse. Is It True ran some big figures at age 2.

[Hickory Hill Hoff]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Easy Goer was my favorite horse when I first started watching racing.

He was from the largest foal crop (1986) of all-time.

One of three no doubt about it all-time GREAT horses from that crop. The others being Sunday Silence and Kentucky-bred Nashwan. Nashwan is the only horse in history to win Britan's four most important races in the same season, they being the 2K Guineas, Derby, Eclipse, and King George.

Off the top of my head, others from that crop include: King Glorious, Breeders Cup Classic winner, and BC Sprint 3rd Black Tie Affair, 12 furlong world record holder Hawkster, The great filly sprinter Safely Kept, Prized (who made his career debut on grass in the BC Turf and won it) There were some very good horses from obscure regions as well...like a Clever Trevor, who ran a solid 2nd to Easy Goer in the Travers after winning like 10-of-14. Western Playboy set a track record at Turfway in the Spiral and won the PA Derby by about 20 lengths. Flying Contentinal was an excellent horse. Is It True ran some big figures at age 2.

1986 was the first year I got into racing...that 1989 group was very very good!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Man O' War was foaled in 1917, he was one of just 1,680 race horses foaled that year. That is the 2nd smallest foal crop of any year in the entire 1900s. Only the crop of 1919, which had just 15 fewer horses, was smaller.

Now, lets say that half of the 1,680 were males. So, we'd have 840 male foals in his crop. Of those 840---I bet you a surprsing percentage never ran a single race in their career. However, I don't have the numbers to that, so I can't say how many did.

A record 463,827 race horses were foaled in the 1980's. Just 18,857 were foaled in the 1910's. On the Blood Horse's List for top 100 of the century, ZERO horses foaled in the 1980's made the top thirty!!

Man O' War made 11 starts as a 3-year-old. In those 11 starts he beat fields of 8, 2, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 1, 1, 3, 1

He was simply just MUCH the best of a handful of horses--and his connections adoritly avoided a showdown with the best horse in the land outside of his crop.

In Man O' War's entire racing career---he beat a GRAND TOTAL OF TWO horses that weren't from his foal crop...and both of them in match races, where he was able to use his superior early speed to his advantage...and get loose early leads.

I guess I'm supposed to consider him the #1 horse of the century because he once ran a 1 1/4 in 2:01 4/5ths? Or 1 1/2 miles in 2:28 4/5ths? The fastest six furlongs he ran was when he was beaten a half length to upset in 1:11 1/5ths. Oh yeah, we also have to assume the tracks were 20 lengths slower back than.

i really wish this bit of fiction would cease. he did not duck exterminator, who was invited, and didn't show to what turned into a match race between man o war and sir barton. and don't forget, sir barton also defeated exterminator-hard to say which of those was the best older horse.
i suppose you can make man o wars stats fit your agenda of him being overrated. have at it.