Big 2 yr old races??

[tycharles01]

Guys I know it early to talk 2 yr olds but just was curious

When are most of the big races for them?? IN Oct Nov and what are they??


Just got little arugement at track last week, wanna see if I am right!!!

THANKS

[Downthestretch55]

Many two year olds are already on the track.
And, I think that's pushing them.
The 2yo race to watch is the one at Saratoga during the last week of the meet.

[tycharles01]

I know they are already racing, thing arugement was about was when the big races are???

When is the last week at Saratoga?

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by tycharles01

I know they are already racing, thing arugement was about was when the big races are???

When is the last week at Saratoga?

On 9/4/06 will be the Hopeful at Saratoga. That's one of the best 2yo races in my opinion.
DTS

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Many two year olds are already on the track.
And, I think that's pushing them.
The 2yo race to watch is the one at Saratoga during the last week of the meet.

I've posted this before ... but it's worth repeating ...

... in the 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's there were 26 champions who made their first starts as 2YOS in February, March, or April. Of the 26 ... only one ... Hail To Reason ... had a career that was shortened by injury.

There isn't any sport where successful professionals didn't begin to play against serious competition as kids. It's no different for horses. If a horse is going to be an accomplished professional ... he must start learning the trade early.

This lesson has been largely lost ... but with the frequent breakdowns of lightly-raced and lately-raced horses ... maybe someone will re-learn it.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

I've posted this before ... but it's worth repeating ...

... in the 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's there were 26 champions who made their first starts as 2YOS in February, March, or April. Of the 26 ... only one ... Hail To Reason ... had a career that was shortened by injury.

There isn't any sport where successful professionals didn't begin to play against serious competition as kids. It's no different for horses. If a horse is going to be an accomplished professional ... he must start learning the trade early.

This lesson has been largely lost ... but with the frequent breakdowns of lightly-raced and lately-raced horses ... maybe someone will re-learn it.

BB,
You are certainly entitled to your opinion (and your facts to back it are good).
I work with horses all the time. Two year olds don't have their bones fully calcified. It's just my opinion but I think if they are pushed too early, problems will develop later. I can tell you ten stories for every two year old winner, bad stuff.
If you allow an analogy...would you put your eight year old son into a little league game, tell him to pitch as hard as he can for nine innings?
We don't do that.
The kid's bones and mucscles aren't ready for that.
Nor are two year old thoroughbreds.
Just my opinion.
DTS

[Gander]

Little league kids typically dont get euthanized on the playing field when they get injured. Horses can lose their lives and lets face it horses were born to run and eat grass, and when one gets injured at 2, typically never runs again. I say if parents are stupid enough to push their kids into sports at too early of an age, let them. Thats their decision. Horses dont have a mind of their own and are at the mercy of greedy people who only want to make mucho bucks. Its a shame and the correlation you are making between young kids playing ball and horses racing at 2 is a horrible one.

Sanford-Hopeful-Champagne-BC Juvenile are the big ones on the east coast.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Gander

Little league kids typically dont get euthanized on the playing field when they get injured. Horses can lose their lives and lets face it horses were born to run and eat grass, and when one gets injured at 2, typically never runs again. I say if parents are stupid enough to push their kids into sports at too early of an age, let them. Thats their decision. Horses dont have a mind of their own and are at the mercy of greedy people who only want to make mucho bucks. Its a shame and the correlation you are making between young kids playing ball and horses racing at 2 is a horrible one.

I agree Gander!
There were some studies done in Europe a few years ago that seemed to indicate that 2 year old racing was actually good for horses, I have yet to see them successfully replicated (the scientific necessity to "prove" any construct/theory/hypothesis). I do believe that at a time when the breeding industry was operating in a sane and rational manner, young horses were sound enough to withstand early entry into competitive racing...now days when we breed unsound sires from unsound lines to unsound fillies from unsound lines, we shouldn't be surprised when careers are shortened more each year!

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

BB,
You are certainly entitled to your opinion (and your facts to back it are good).
I work with horses all the time. Two year olds don't have their bones fully calcified. It's just my opinion but I think if they are pushed too early, problems will develop later. I can tell you ten stories for every two year old winner, bad stuff.
If you allow an analogy...would you put your eight year old son into a little league game, tell him to pitch as hard as he can for nine innings?
We don't do that.
The kid's bones and mucscles aren't ready for that.
Nor are two year old thoroughbreds.
Just my opinion.
DTS

2YO horses are the equivalent of larger high school age humans ... they're muscular and powerful. The 8YO humans you're describing would be late-stage weanlings as horses.

Racing ... and training for racing ... helps the development and fitness of the proper parts of their bodies ... and even more important ...

... helps them develop mentally into professional athletes.

There's absolutely no data which demonstrates that late starters and light racers are more sound ... or better race horses ... than early starters and heavy racers.

Run 'em early ... and run 'em a lot ... they're no more likely to break down than they would otherwise be ... and they'll be better prepared physically and mentally for the tough career as a race horse.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

2YO horses are the equivalent of larger high school age humans ... they're muscular and powerful. The 8YO humans you're describing would be late-stage weanlings as horses.

Racing ... and training for racing ... helps the development and fitness of the proper parts of their bodies ... and even more important ...

... helps them develop mentally into professional athletes.

There's absolutely no data which demonstrates that late starters and light racers are more sound ... or better race horses ... than early starters and heavy racers.

Run 'em early ... and run 'em a lot ... they're no more likely to break down than they would otherwise be ... and they'll be better prepared physically and mentally for the tough career as a race horse.

Bold Bkl
I'm only speaking from my own experiences.
All horses are different. Some mature earlier than others.
With that said, do you remember a filly named My Name's Michelle?
She ran at AQ this past winter, and won.
She was born and raised, and broke at the farm where I keep mine.
She got hurt early when a rider that was a bit too heavy for her took her to the training track before she was ready. It took her a long while to recover.
At least she got her win...but she hasn't raced back since.
That's only one example. There are quite a few more.
As I said, some can be raced early, but from my experience, it just might be better to give them a few more months to develop (calcify).
To me, it's easier to wait than push them to do something that they're not ready for.
DTS

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

2YO horses are the equivalent of larger high school age humans ... they're muscular and powerful. The 8YO humans you're describing would be late-stage weanlings as horses.

Racing ... and training for racing ... helps the development and fitness of the proper parts of their bodies ... and even more important ...

... helps them develop mentally into professional athletes.

There's absolutely no data which demonstrates that late starters and light racers are more sound ... or better race horses ... than early starters and heavy racers.

Run 'em early ... and run 'em a lot ... they're no more likely to break down than they would otherwise be ... and they'll be better prepared physically and mentally for the tough career as a race horse.

A two year old horse is the equivalent to a six year old child. 1 year horses=3 years humans. This is a proven fact.

However, you and DTS are both right. A two-year old can and should be raced if they are fit, sound, and mature enough to do it. It all depends on the individual animal. The problem is that a lot of trainers/owners push delicate unsound animals way too much.

Originally Posted by Dixie Porter

Oh well Mr. Brooklynite it's time for me to be a nudge.

HTR, HTF and Bewitch were arguably the three best two's that ever hit the track.

When do we START talkin about the fastest fillies ever to be loaded into the gate?

Didn't Bewitch have a colt stablemate who was pretty good? He ran second to her as a 2YO ... I forget his name ... but I think it began with a C ... whatever happened to him?

Hail To Reason is a good example of starting early ... and a bad one. "Good" because he stunk in his first five starts ... which began in January! ... then did OK in his next six starts ... then blossomed into a spectacuklar champion in his next seven starts ... a total of 18 starts as a 2YO! ... getting better and better with each one. But he's also a "bad" example ... because he broke down and never raced again.

Hoist The Flag may have been the greatest race horse in the history of the world ... may have ... but we'll never know 'cause he broke down too.

And please don't refer to yourself as a noodge ... you are definitely NOT a noodge ...

... you're a complete pain-in-the-ass!

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Hail To Reason is a good example of starting early ... and a bad one. "Good" because he stunk in his first five starts ... which began in January! ... then did OK in his next six starts ... then blossomed into a spectacuklar champion in his next seven starts ... a total of 18 starts as a 2YO! ... getting better and better with each one. But he's also a "bad" example ... because he broke down and never raced again.

Hoist The Flag may have been the greatest race horse in the history of the world ... may have ... but we'll never know 'cause he broke down too.

Hail to Reason did not 'break down' in the usual sense. According to a source that should know (was a racing fan at the time), HtR was working when he stepped on a shoe that had been shed by another horse earlier in the morning. Caused an injury that ended his racing career. As a stallion, he has been a reliable source of soundness and stamina.

Hoist the Flag ran only 4 times at 2, a maiden, an allowance, the Cowdin and the Champagne, all in the space of two months. He came out the next spring, aired against allowance foes at Bowie and ran away from some colts that placed in the classics in the Gotham. Was working when he put a foot down wrong and had a Barbaro-type injury. (I was a racing fan at the time and have written the profile for HtF for the upcoming book "Great Sires of the Century". Shameless plug.)

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

Hail to Reason did not 'break down' in the usual sense. According to a source that should know (was a racing fan at the time), HtR was working when he stepped on a shoe that had been shed by another horse earlier in the morning. Caused an injury that ended his racing career. As a stallion, he has been a reliable source of soundness and stamina.

Hoist the Flag ran only 4 times at 2, a maiden, an allowance, the Cowdin and the Champagne, all in the space of two months. He came out the next spring, aired against allowance foes at Bowie and ran away from some colts that placed in the classics in the Gotham. Was working when he put a foot down wrong and had a Barbaro-type injury. (I was a racing fan at the time and have written the profile for HtF for the upcoming book "Great Sires of the Century". Shameless plug.)

Correct in both cases.

What a shame their careers were cut short ... two of the greatest woulda/coulda/shouldas in thoroughbred racing history.

By the way "Pedigree Ann" ... have you sometimes called yourself "Phalaris"?

C'mon ... 'fess up if you have!

Saratoga is obviously the feature meet for juveniles...Del Mar will turn up a few decent juvys, but Saratoga will be a tell-tale sign of the best BC Juvenile contenders IMO.....Right now, Scat Daddy for TODD PLETCHER HOLDS A SLIGHT EDGE ON THE 2-YEAR-OLD DIVISION IMO, but plenty more juvys will emerge and I'm unsure that Scat Daddy can get 1 1/16-miles for the BC Juvy......I really believe Darley is locked and loaded for the Saratoga meet with around 50 juveniles that were serious sales toppers and will prove to be VERY nice babies.....I've seen too many sales to think other wise...the Shieks have the goods this year...

[Danzig]

i have a question tho....

many trainers use works between races to keep a horse fit. in the 'old days' races were used between races, if you know what i mean. why the change? you don't earn purse money in a work.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

i have a question tho....

many trainers use works between races to keep a horse fit. in the 'old days' races were used between races, if you know what i mean. why the change? you don't earn purse money in a work.

Danzig,
Again, I'm only speaking from my own experiences.
Some trainers still use races as preps for bigger later.
As far as works go, many people think horses are a "constant".
They ran that way last time, so why shouldn't they run the same way again now?
The short answer is that they aren't "constant". It's more like a curve.
Train up (whether with works or races) so that they're at the peak of the curve when it counts. It all depends on what is being aimed at.
I hope this makes sense.
DTS