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  #1  
Old 07-05-2006, 10:27 PM
Betsy Betsy is offline
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Default Mineshaft - am I losing my mind?

I have no idea why he's looked upon as an average to mediocre HOY - I go onto this other board and you couldn't believe the arguments being made as to what an overrated horse he was. Look, I freely admit to being a HUGE Seattle Slew/AP Indy line fan, but I think I'm being unbiased when I say that he was an exceptional racehorse. I'm not putting him up against Cigar, Ghostzapper or anyother horse - I can't make those comparisons and I wouldn't dare to try. Just looking at what he did as a racehorse, he won the Pimlico Special, Woodward, Suburban, JCGC - those are big races, old time races with gobs of prestige. He won them practically being eased up, and in brilliant time. I enjoy a good debate as much as anyone, but I'm having a hard time on this other board. There are two points against him over there: 1) he beat garbage and 2) he wimped out on the Classic.

As to point 1, is it really fair to hold Mineshaft (or any horse) up to the standard of, say, Slew beating Affirmed, who beat Spectacular Bid? Great horses don't come along very often, so I don't understand the argument that Mineshaft was mediocre because he didn't beat true champions. Medaglio D'Oro was a very good horse, and Bobby Frankel chose to ship out West to face Candy Ride rather than face Mineshaft; Harlan's Holiday ducked him, too. I don't get how it's his fault that traineres didn't want to run their horses against him.

As to point 2, I refuse to believe that Will Farish, who adored this colt (best he ever bred, he's said), would be as unsportsmanlike as all that. Of course, I have no proof, but then....those claiming Mineshaft ducked the big boys have no proof, either.

I guess what I don't understand is how racing fans complain that the stars don't run as 4 year olds, that we haven't had a great horse in a long time, etc........When a really good horse comes along, then, they complain, too? It's really hard to please fans. I gave up on the argument on the other board; it pleases me to know that, as far as racing performances, Mineshaft is pretty highly regarded (again, not ranking him or anything).

Thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 07-05-2006, 10:34 PM
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ateamstupid ateamstupid is offline
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I concur.

The main knock on Mineshaft is that he didn't beat anyone, but it wasn't Farish's fault everyone decided to duck him. At the same time, Farish didn't help matters by not sending him to the BCC..
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  #3  
Old 07-05-2006, 10:39 PM
Danzig Danzig is offline
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there will always be doubters, always people who enjoy nothing so much as being the devils advocate. or there are those who just aren't willing/able to see things. one convoluted bit of logic i always get a chuckle from, are the arguments that mineshaft beat 'nothing' and then you see praise heaped onto perfect drift (for example) who beat mineshaft from the same person who just criticized the HOY winner! i mean, if mineshaft was nothing, beat nothing, why would they think it's a big deal that PD beat mineshaft??? haven't quite figured that one out as yet.

mineshaft had a really good campaign that year--i have to say i would take a horse like mineshaft over some of the far more lightly raced champs we've had....
as for ducking, his schedule was out there for all to see--bobby frankel for one freely admitted ducking HIM.
as for the bcc, mineshaft didn't go due to a problem with one of his legs( a chip maybe? horses sometimes run with them til they become a real problem)--and why would you run a horse with a leg problem in cali of all places? everyone had a chance all year to run against him--they didn't. and then critics pop up accusing the mineshaft team of ducking. um, yeah, ok.

i do think it's a shame that when a horse has a great year he still has his detractors. but it happens in all areas of society, not just in horse racing! just a fact of life.
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  #4  
Old 07-05-2006, 10:49 PM
Betsy Betsy is offline
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Great points Danzig, and thanks, too, Ateam - I was getting tired of banging my head against the wall. I'm not expecting or asking people to say he was the greatest horse in the world, either......just hoping for the horse to get credit.

LOL about Perfect Drift-that's so true. Oh, that's another point against Mineshaft - he lost a race (on dirt)! As for his injury, I have to assume Farish and Howard were telling the truth - I don't know why there is so much suspicion around Farish when the man has been a sportsman all his life. All I know is that if Mineshaft WAS injured and he ran in the BC.....and then it was discovered that Farish, etc..knew about the injury, what do you think the fans' reaction would have been? They would have been in an uproar on the boards, screaming about the cruelty to animals, etc.....It actually makes me want to laugh!
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  #5  
Old 07-05-2006, 10:59 PM
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disappearingdan_akaplaya disappearingdan_akaplaya is offline
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yes the almighty mineshaft was ducked and ducked and ducked but funny how they ducked the BCC with the horse.........hmmmmmm maybe because hed actually have to run against a full field and the last time the horse did that he lost, not to mention the almighty mineshaft was defeated by balto star on the DIRT ....... as ive said numerous times a very nice horse but can you truly put the label"great" on him?
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  #6  
Old 07-06-2006, 01:24 AM
bogeydaman bogeydaman is offline
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Here are the last 9 horse of the years since Cigar (Saint Liam, Ghostzapper, Mineshaft, Left Bank, Tiznow, Lemon Drop Kid, Victory Gallop, Skip Away (2X)). You can take shots at Mineshaft losing to PD (by a neck with a horrible ride), but GZ lost to Valid Video, Tiznow lost to most G1 horses on the West Coast for 2 years, etc, etc.

IMO Mineshaft 2003 (6 grades stakes wins, 4 grade ones) is favorable to the years that each of these horses HOY records.

IMO opinion he is one of the top 2 horses of the last 10 years (1A and 1B with Ghostzapper) regardless of whether either of these horses beat "anything".

It's a shame he did not get a chance to prove his brilliance in the BC, but then again he woud have been knocked for not running against anything since nothing of "consequence" ran in that race.
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  #7  
Old 07-06-2006, 08:07 AM
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Thunder Gulch Thunder Gulch is offline
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Mineshaft had some great days, but prevailing opinion these days is so heavily influenced by the biggest of stages in the Breeders Cup where we never had the opportunity to see Mineshaft. Look at the case of Ghostzapper: His figures were amazing, but there were many questions surrounding him as he went into the BC Classic. Off that single outstanding performance, he went from a sheet freak to a horse considered by novices to be the best since Cigar.
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  #8  
Old 07-06-2006, 08:11 AM
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You aren't insane, there are a lot of ignorant folks out there Betsy, and they don't represent the majority who actually understand the game.
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  #9  
Old 07-06-2006, 08:34 AM
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Seattleallstar Seattleallstar is offline
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defintely a good horse but you cant label a horse great, when he really never faced the best that year.

Beating up on Volponi, Perfect Drift, Evening Attire, Quest, Hold That Tiger, Puzzlement..lol...lol, hell I even think he ran in a race with Dollar Bill in it and a great sprinter in Aldebaran hardly makes him great.

No Congaree, no Plesantly Perfect, Medaglia
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  #10  
Old 07-06-2006, 09:08 AM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattleallstar
defintely a good horse but you cant label a horse great, when he really never faced the best that year.

Beating up on Volponi, Perfect Drift, Evening Attire, Quest, Hold That Tiger, Puzzlement..lol...lol, hell I even think he ran in a race with Dollar Bill in it and a great sprinter in Aldebaran hardly makes him great.

No Congaree, no Plesantly Perfect, Medaglia
Thats kinda like saying Larry Holmes wasn't great because during his reign there wasn't anyone around worth a damn to fight. You could tell from watching the guy that he coulda beat greats, they just werent around in his time.
I'm a sheet guy, and Mineshaft's sheet numbers match up with anyone in history. He was truly great.
I hear the same **** about Cigar from time to time as well, but I just dont buy it. You can see greatness in a horse even if its beating noone, so long as its beating noone the right way.
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  #11  
Old 07-06-2006, 09:39 AM
bogeydaman bogeydaman is offline
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defintely a good horse but you cant label a horse great, when he really never faced the best that year.

Beating up on Volponi, Perfect Drift, Evening Attire, Quest, Hold That Tiger, Puzzlement..lol...lol, hell I even think he ran in a race with Dollar Bill in it and a great sprinter in Aldebaran hardly makes him great.

No Congaree, no Plesantly Perfect, Medaglia
If Mineshaft is not great, then please give me a list of great horses who have raced over the last 10 years?
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  #12  
Old 07-06-2006, 09:49 AM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogeydaman
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defintely a good horse but you cant label a horse great, when he really never faced the best that year.

Beating up on Volponi, Perfect Drift, Evening Attire, Quest, Hold That Tiger, Puzzlement..lol...lol, hell I even think he ran in a race with Dollar Bill in it and a great sprinter in Aldebaran hardly makes him great.

No Congaree, no Plesantly Perfect, Medaglia
If Mineshaft is not great, then please give me a list of great horses who have raced over the last 10 years?
Hes doesnt get it pal. He mentions Congaree as a great(and he was, up to a certain distance, one of the best milers of all time, ever!) but he was beaten at times by Scorpion and Milwaukee Brew. I guess this poster feels that both those horses should go down in history as all time greats right?
You can't judge a horse by any one criteria. Afleet Alex beat NOTHING last year, and I mean NOTHING!!!!! He actually lost to Giacomo(ouch) and beat Scrappy T in the Preakness and then beat Andromedas Hero and Nolans Cat in the Belmont( go ahead and try to find a horse in tri crown history who beat worse) but that doesnt mean Alex wasnt great. Fact is he really shredded them with enough authority that you could make the case that he may have beaten greats if they were around. That argument simply doesnt hold water from a pure common sense standpoint. This poster would have us believe that a rule exists in the universe that a horse can only truly be great if there is another great horse that year to beat.Thats not always possible. For every year with Affirmed and Alydar we have many more years where two great horses dont exist in the same year. Its nonsense to use that as a sole criteria.
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  #13  
Old 07-06-2006, 11:15 AM
Bold Brooklynite
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogeydaman
If Mineshaft is not great, then please give me a list of great horses who have raced over the last 10 years?
I think the word "great" should be used very sparingly.

I only use it to describe horses who were champions every year that they raced ... or who just missed out being champion to another great horse ... especially starting as a 2YO ... and hopefully going through to 4YO.

By this definition ... Spectacular Bid was the last great American race horse.

There have been some very successful, high-quality race horses since then ... including Mineshaft ... who deserve to be in the Hall Of Fame ... but none to whom I would apply the pantheon word "great."
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  #14  
Old 07-06-2006, 01:54 PM
Betsy Betsy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattleallstar
defintely a good horse but you cant label a horse great, when he really never faced the best that year.

Beating up on Volponi, Perfect Drift, Evening Attire, Quest, Hold That Tiger, Puzzlement..lol...lol, hell I even think he ran in a race with Dollar Bill in it and a great sprinter in Aldebaran hardly makes him great.

No Congaree, no Plesantly Perfect, Medaglia
LOL that's like a person accused of killing his parents, pleading for mercy to the court because he's an orphan! Medaglio ducked him and that should count against Mineshaft?

They all ducked him and yet he pays the price with a really mediocre reputation amongst fans. I don't get it.
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  #15  
Old 07-06-2006, 10:36 AM
oracle80
 
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Anyone who posts a list of top ten horses they have seen that includes Candy Ride but not Ghostzapper immediately destroys all credibility and any future credibility that they may have.
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  #16  
Old 07-06-2006, 10:48 AM
oracle80
 
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Seattle it appears that you hastily put together a list of your own personal favorites(rather than a list based on accomplishment) and didnt give it more than 30 seconds thought, thus the original omission before the edit of Ghostzapper from the list.
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  #17  
Old 07-06-2006, 10:52 AM
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Seattleallstar Seattleallstar is offline
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im having breakfast with a beautiful girl sitting across from me what do you expect from me at 8 in the morning. Thank god the cafe' has wi-fi
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  #18  
Old 07-06-2006, 10:55 AM
eurobounce
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattleallstar
im having breakfast with a beautiful girl sitting across from me what do you expect from me at 8 in the morning. Thank god the cafe' has wi-fi
That beautiful woman prob feels very special since you are on the computer talking about horses.
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  #19  
Old 07-06-2006, 10:58 AM
oracle80
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eurobounce
That beautiful woman prob feels very special since you are on the computer talking about horses.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Post of the day!! Ding Ding DIng!!
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