Curlin's Legacy

I have a hard time putting him as one of the best all time, first off because i dont go that far back, and second off i dont think he was even 1-2 in his crop. Retirements kill this sport, Hard Spun, Street Sense and Rags to Riches were all monsters, none of them returned to the track this year. Of the recent horses that i can compare him to, i dont think he was any better then Street Cry,Point Given, Bernardini even Invasor seemed to do it more powerfully then Curlin, Ghostzapper, Roses in May, i dont know, maybe im wrong, but i cant see how Curlin can be a All Time great when one could argue that he's not even top 10 in the last 10 years.

[pdrift1]

[quote=hrfan]I have a hard time putting him as one of the best all time, first off because i dont go that far back, and second off i dont think he was even 1-2 in his crop. Retirements kill this sport, Hard Spun, Street Sense and Rags to Riches were all monsters, none of them returned to the track this year. Of the recent horses that i can compare him to, i dont think he was any better then Street Cry,Point Given, Bernardini even Invasor seemed to do it more powerfully then Curlin, Ghostzapper, Roses in May, i dont know, maybe im wrong, but i cant see how Curlin can be a All Time great when one could argue that he's not even top 10 in the last 10 years.[/QUOTE

one of the best of all time-no

1-2 in his crop-yes

top ten in THIS decade-yes you could make that argument

so he is def. better then Hard Spun, Street Sense and Rags To Riches ? Or is it the fact that they retired and he continues to beat up on weak competition like many ppl on this site have said. I will stick to the best horse he has beat this year is Well Armed. What is that really saying ?

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by hrfan

so he is def. better then Hard Spun, Street Sense and Rags To Riches ? Or is it the fact that they retired and he continues to beat up on weak competition like many ppl on this site have said. I will stick to the best horse he has beat this year is Well Armed. What is that really saying ?

i think they were all nice horses in there own right that 3 year old year from the list you mention.

i would only put rags above him maybe not just because of the belmont win but her other impressive wins and thats a maybe.

i have to think that hard spun and street sense if given the chance to go into thier 4 year old year, they might have declined also as curlin might be right now also. could they have survived the trip to dubai and come back as well as curlin has .to continue to win-maybe but not against curlin i don't think.
i do believe this bunch in the classic is at its all time low for quality in competition for him to race against-big advantage

i believe he can only race with whats out there and he would fit in fine with some of the other horses thru the years.

sometimes horses step up to thier competition and curlin if he had to could have picked it up against some of the others.

mind you i still think ghostzapper was the best of this decade.

and if commentator could have stayed healthy could have had a more stellar record then he has, and i think he has been very impressive thruout his career.
these 2 where very versatile

but i thinking is he is a very good horse as i said could have stepped up if need be but thats just my opinion

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by hrfan

so he is def. better then Hard Spun, Street Sense and Rags To Riches ? Or is it the fact that they retired and he continues to beat up on weak competition like many ppl on this site have said. I will stick to the best horse he has beat this year is Well Armed. What is that really saying ?

i think everyone including myself gets critical of a top horse when they are running and starts to compare back . the freahest races in your mind are the ones you just seen run, and if they don't look stellar you start to question. but if we could go back some of the others had less then desirable races also.

when all is said and done and we look back at him in 4 or 5 years we will appreciate him along with some of the other top horses of this decade.

i think he deserves his props

[Thunder Gulch]

Originally Posted by hrfan

so he is def. better then Hard Spun, Street Sense and Rags To Riches ? Or is it the fact that they retired and he continues to beat up on weak competition like many ppl on this site have said. I will stick to the best horse he has beat this year is Well Armed. What is that really saying ?

I think he was better than those. Remember he didn't start at 2 and only had 3 starts when the triple crown rolled around. Considering that, his performance through those three races was outstanding. By the end of the year, yes, he was a notch above those others. RTR was a phenomenal filly, while Hard Spun and Street Sense were very good 3yo colts that had their moments, but not great ones.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

hes ok..look at the attrition rate..if most of the crop had stayed healthy and didnt go off to breeding would curlin be that great..i say no..

[Linny]

Originally Posted by hrfan

so he is def. better then Hard Spun, Street Sense and Rags To Riches ? Or is it the fact that they retired and he continues to beat up on weak competition like many ppl on this site have said. I will stick to the best horse he has beat this year is Well Armed. What is that really saying ?

Curlin was named HOY over the other three. I think that SS had peaked by the time he ran the Travers and that Rags, post injury was not likley to come back as well, and that HS, as game as he was was better suited to 8 and 9f and that had he run this year Jones was hoping to try him as a grass miler. Based on how they finished the year last year, I couldn't see any of that trio threatening Curlin this season, though it would have been nice of them to try.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by hrfan

I have a hard time putting him as one of the best all time, first off because i dont go that far back, and second off i dont think he was even 1-2 in his crop. Retirements kill this sport, Hard Spun, Street Sense and Rags to Riches were all monsters, none of them returned to the track this year. Of the recent horses that i can compare him to, i dont think he was any better then Street Cry,Point Given, Bernardini even Invasor seemed to do it more powerfully then Curlin, Ghostzapper, Roses in May, i dont know, maybe im wrong, but i cant see how Curlin can be a All Time great when one could argue that he's not even top 10 in the last 10 years.

Curlin = Ashado

Quality Grade 1 talent with sub par competition... Real nice horses but certainly products of the era. Neither of the two above were exceptionally fast, both beat a bunch suspect stock often enough to have records which inflate their earnings and legend among masses.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

1. Who said Curlin was an all time great?

2. Didn't Curlin at least prove he was better than Street Sense and Hard Spun last year?

3. How could Hard Spun be thought of as better?

4. If Curlin was by Giant's Causeway, would he be thought of higher?

5. How can someone even begin to form an opinion on someone's place in history, when they don't have any clue about racing before 2003? And have no desire to either?

6. Is Mambo In Seattle an all time great?

Hard Spun was a pretty talented horse and most likely was better suited for 7 to 9 furlong races.. Not sure Curlin would have been competitive at a mile against Hard Spun.. Not sure Hard Spun would have much success against Curlin at 10F's either.. Hard Spun was a pretty neat colt with a lot of natural speed.

[freddymo]

[quote=DaHoss9698]1.

4. If Curlin was by Giant's Causeway, would he be thought of higher?



Yeah those Smart Strikes are ice cold...lol

[freddymo]

[quote=DaHoss9698]

Originally Posted by freddymo

You missed the joke Freddy.

No I got it I was referring to his madness not yours..

I think Smart Strike is as hot a stallion in the market his fee has gone from like 20 to 150k in like 5 years.. GC while a terriffic stallion isn't currently as hot as Smart strike

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Didn't Curlin at least prove he was better than Street Sense and Hard Spun last year?

I think Curlin was better than Street Sense but I don't know if it can really be said it was proven. Street Sense beat Curlin decisively in the Derby, Curlin beat Street Sense by a head in the Preakness. People want to use the BC Classic as the tiebreaker but we all know that Street Sense hates the slop. Hell, he lost to Officer Rocket and Gotthelastlaugh on it during his champion 2yo season. And it isn't like Curlin was the only one to beat him in the Classic.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I'll preface this by saying I was a Street Sense guy all last year. I think if Curlin had gotten one more prep before the Derby, he would have won. I also think the Street Sense from May, was a lot different than the Street Sense the rest of the year. He tailed off in my opinion. I think it's pretty clear Curlin was and is the best of that crop.

You could argue Curlin tailed off, too (at least during the summer). Didn't everyone write him off as some sort of grinder after his modest Haskell effort?

Also, though they pad his resume now, weren't the JCGC and BC Classic wins considered mild upsets (in the sense that Lawyer Ron was odds-on at Belmont and Curlin was 3rd or 4th choice in the Classic) at the time?

Either way, had Street Sense returned at 4, I think he would have beaten Curlin more times than not in races contested at 9f. Further than that and the reverse would be likely.

[ELA]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

You could argue Curlin tailed off, too (at least during the summer). Didn't everyone write him off as some sort of grinder after his modest Haskell effort?

Also, though they pad his resume now, weren't the JCGC and BC Classic wins considered mild upsets (in the sense that Lawyer Ron was odds-on at Belmont and Curlin was 3rd or 4th choice in the Classic) at the time?

Either way, had Street Sense returned at 4, I think he would have beaten Curlin more times than not in races contested at 9f. Further than that and the reverse would be likely.

I don't know that the argument of Curlin tailing off is feasible, at least not to those who didn't write him off as a grinder-type or think he was beginning to tail off after the Haskell. Personally, I didn't write him off due to either, especially him being some sort of grinder. If the tailing off argument was out there, I think the JCGC put that to rest. To my surprise, I didn't hear the "grinder" argument. Most qualified opinions I heard were not along those lines at all. I also think during the summer, many people got caught up in the Lawyer Ron monster performances, and they were nothing short of being that. Maybe it was horse for course, a freak thing, or I don't know what.

As far as Street Sense coming back at 4 -- well, what should have, could have, would have . . . Unfortunately we'll never know. Last year, I thought throughout the year, Curlin was getting better. He was gaining experience, seasoning, battle scars, etc. Personally, I don't feel I can say the same thing about Street Sense.

I'm sorry it's something that has to be hypothesized. Excellent points though, and thanks.

Eric

[King Glorious]

I think Curlin was the top 3yo of last year but I don't think it was definititve. A short nose in the Preakness and he would have had a losing record against Street Sense. The dominance of the BC Classic is what seemed to make everyone think it was definitive but because of the track conditions, I don't know if you can say that. While I don't hold it against him that he lost to a filly in the Belmont because I thought that filly was top class, even if the results would have been reversed and it was his head in front at the wire, the tight finish in the race would have further proved that while he was the best, the margin was close.

As for this year, I'm not fooled. I haven't seen a better horse this year than I saw in the fall of last year. I like to see improvement from the 3yo to 4yo season and I just haven't. I've seen a horse that's beat up on third rate competition all year long. Obviously, who he faces is not something that's in his control but his performances are and they just haven't done it for me. The sad thing is that the state of the game is so bad right now that he's still the leading candidate for HOY.

I'd go with saying he was the best of last year's 3yo class. He is arguably among the top 10 of the 2000's (although off the top of my head, I just came up with six I'd put ahead of him and that was with little thought). One of the all-time greats? Not in the opinion of this guy. Of all of the horses that I've personally watched in the 22 years I've been following horses, I'd guess Curlin might fall in the 51-75 range. That's really disappointing to me because after watching his Arkansas Derby, I would have thought he was surely on his way to my personal all-time top 20, at least.

[Danzig]

by the same token, his win over hard spun in the bcc was about the same as street sense in the derby. they all traded wins over each other. hard to say really who would have been best this year, since only one of the top five from last year is around. i think it may well have been more of the same.
certainly would have been more interesting than what we've had.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

We're going to have to agree to disagree about this. I saw nothing in any of Street Sense's efforts after the Preakness that make me think he would have been trading decisions with Curlin. Looking back, I think that Preakness effort was the beginning of the end for him. He ran okay in the Jim Dandy and Travers. He also ran okay in that race at Turfway. But in my opinion, he was a different animal. While Curlin was getting better, he was declining. I know Curlin's Haskell was so-so. But nothing after that was.

I agree. SS was not very sound at 3 and Carl did a great job with him. Let's face it, while his Travers looked impressive, the horse he barely beat has not covered himself in glory since. In fact, I don't think Grasshopper has won a race since that allowance at the Spa. Hard Spun was never in danger from Street Sense at Turfway and while mud was not he's best surface, he was very dull at Monmouth.
Overall I'd say SS was never has good as he looked at Churchill and never as bad as he looked at Monmouth.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Linny

he was very dull at Monmouth.
Overall I'd say SS was never has good as he looked at Churchill and never as bad as he looked at Monmouth.

Yeah. He wasn't himself at Monmouth.

Probably cuz he never ran there...

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

We're going to have to agree to disagree about this. I saw nothing in any of Street Sense's efforts after the Preakness that make me think he would have been trading decisions with Curlin. Looking back, I think that Preakness effort was the beginning of the end for him. He ran okay in the Jim Dandy and Travers. He also ran okay in that race at Turfway. But in my opinion, he was a different animal. While Curlin was getting better, he was declining. I know Curlin's Haskell was so-so. But nothing after that was.

You're right as far as his Saratoga performances leaving a bit to be desired, but at Turfway, he was likely "prepping" (as he did at Keeneland), typical of Carl Nafzger leading up to big races (see Unbridled and Banshee Breeze also).

Even still, the Saratoga races can be forgiven in that the Jim Dandy was a comeback race and, though you can certainly disagree, the Travers was too far. In the BC Classic, he made his move alongside Curlin but the distance and likely the "tired horse" factor came into play (not to mention the surface).

Anyways, what was being assumed with Street Sense at 4 was that he would obviously get a break after the BC and would be 100% at the start of his campaign. I'd imagine he'd uncork efforts similar to the ones Victory Gallop displayed in 1999 (all 2 or 3 of them).