Turf Sprint Project -- 'Turnback' debate

[Kasept]

TFM ("the fat man") brought up a point the other day when I cited BTW's (blackthroatedwind) belief that the long-successful turnback angle is blunted when tried in grass sprints.

As 5f-7f turf sprints have proliferated in NY and Florida, (horseman like them as they seem to take little out of the horses), no one seems to really have a grasp on how to 'handicap' them with any consistent certainty. Joe Orseno, (I think), told me the other day that fast breaking horses drawn inside are the only angle he finds in one turn grass races.

So, as fat man suggested, we need to discuss this more...

[the_fat_man]

Originally Posted by Kasept

As 5f-7f turf sprints have proliferated in NY and Florida, (horseman like them as they seem to take little out of the horses), no one seems to really have a grasp on how to 'handicap' them with any consistent certainty. Joe Orseno, (I think), told me the other day that fast breaking horses drawn inside are the only angle he finds in one turn grass races.

I don't think this is indicative of the ability of the handicappers out there. The problem with cutbacks is that most trainers don't know how to properly instruct the jocks to ride these races. A horse cutting back is supposed to put in the best late run, as such, all other things being equal, the only time it's supposed to lose a stretch run is to a loose lead. What happens, more often than not, is that the horse is kept too close to the pace and has its kick nullified.

For a very recent example of this, though not on the turf, check out today's 7th at PHA. The 1 horse is cutting back from 8F to 6.5F. She's a lock if ridden properly; i.e. not used too early. So, Elliott, in a nice stalking position with her early, GUNS her to the lead on the turn, draws off, and gets run down by a horse that has only sprinted, 2 5.5F races, and 1 6.5F race, and got run down in the 6.5F race. This is like a 100 yard dash runner running down a quarter miler in track and field. It's a ****in' joke and only happens in racing with bozo jocks.

If you've ever been 'run off your feet' early, be it running, cycling, blading, or whatever, this is common sense. If you're on a horse, which is essentially doing all the work, you could give a ****.

[cakes44]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I don't think this is indicative of the ability of the handicappers out there. The problem with cutbacks is that most trainers don't know how to properly instruct the jocks to ride these races. A horse cutting back is supposed to put in the best late run, as such, all other things being equal, the only time it's supposed to lose a stretch run is to a loose lead. What happens, more often than not, is that the horse is kept too close to the pace and has its kick nullified.

For a very recent example of this, though not on the turf, check out today's 7th at PHA. The 1 horse is cutting back from 8F to 6.5F. She's a lock if ridden properly; i.e. not used too early. So, Elliott, in a nice stalking position with her early, GUNS her to the lead on the turn, draws off, and gets run down by a horse that has only sprinted, 2 5.5F races, and 1 6.5F race, and got run down in the 6.5F race. This is like a 100 yard dash runner running down a quarter miler in track and field. It's a ****in' joke and only happens in racing with bozo jocks.

I agree 100%. Too many jocks are unwilling or unable to get horses to settle back and make one big run in these races.

[ArlJim78]

you're covering lots of ground when you talk about 5-7 furlong turf sprints.
i have found ways to play the shorter end of the range (5-5.5F) with very good success, but 6-7F is a different animal and plays a little differently if you ask me.

i could see where a cutback angle would not work so well on the shorter sprints, but might be more relevant on the longer sprints especially the kind in NY.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

you're covering lots of ground when you talk about 5-7 furlong turf sprints.
i have found ways to play the shorter end of the range (5-5.5F) with very good success, but 6-7F is a different animal and plays a little differently if you ask me.

i could see where a cutback angle would not work so well on the shorter sprints, but might be more relevant on the longer sprints especially the kind in NY.

I agree, the cutback angle at Tampa where they run 5.0f turf sprints is a negative angle for me. The cutbacks usually get chewed up in the pace or start making their run after the race is virtually over. You have to have a special horse (or a suspect group of front runners) to close from deep in the field at 5.0f on the grass at Tampa. As Jim said, the "longer" turf sprints are where the cutback angle becomes a positive.

I also think turf sprints factor in the jockey a bit more than your run of the mill 6 or 7f dirt race. Most turf sprints sport a full field and a jock has got to know his horse's running style and put his horse in the proper position to win. Because it is a cavalry charge into the turn, there is all sorts of chaos going on and you have to have a good pilot to get you through it.

Replay watching is a must with turf sprints. There are multiple bad trips in these races. A different post position or a jockey switch may be the key factor to put a horse over the top.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I don't think this is indicative of the ability of the handicappers out there. The problem with cutbacks is that most trainers don't know how to properly instruct the jocks to ride these races. A horse cutting back is supposed to put in the best late run, as such, all other things being equal, the only time it's supposed to lose a stretch run is to a loose lead. What happens, more often than not, is that the horse is kept too close to the pace and has its kick nullified.

For a very recent example of this, though not on the turf, check out today's 7th at PHA. The 1 horse is cutting back from 8F to 6.5F. She's a lock if ridden properly; i.e. not used too early. So, Elliott, in a nice stalking position with her early, GUNS her to the lead on the turn, draws off, and gets run down by a horse that has only sprinted, 2 5.5F races, and 1 6.5F race, and got run down in the 6.5F race. This is like a 100 yard dash runner running down a quarter miler in track and field. It's a ****in' joke and only happens in racing with bozo jocks.

If you've ever been 'run off your feet' early, be it running, cycling, blading, or whatever, this is common sense. If you're on a horse, which is essentially doing all the work, you could give a ****.

While agree with your premise, the idea that trainers bear the main responsibility of jockeys poor rides is a stretch.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

se habla espanol?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by hoovesupsideyourhead

se habla espanol?

Si habla espagnol, no habla retardo espanol.

[otisotisotis]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Si habla espagnol, no habla retardo espanol.

I laughed, muy mucho.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While agree with your premise, the idea that trainers bear the main responsibility of jockeys poor rides is a stretch.

That's true. Most trainers stick to the script of "gunna leave that up to him." I guess they are afraid certain jocks won't ride for them (when an owner requests that jock.)

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

That's true. Most trainers stick to the script of "gunna leave that up to him." I guess they are afraid certain jocks won't ride for them (when an owner requests that jock.)

They rarely listen much anyway or you just confuse them

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

That's true. Most trainers stick to the script of "gunna leave that up to him." I guess they are afraid certain jocks won't ride for them (when an owner requests that jock.)

If a jock a) Hasn't worked the horse in the morning, b) ridden the horse before or c) actually looked at the PPs of the races prior, then chances are Plan D...instructions..aren't going to work so well

[AeWingnut]

what's the saying

Good jocks don't need instructions and
bad ones can't follow them.

When I see new tactics.. always wonder if it is trainer or jockey.
if there is a switch I wonder who's idea it was and if it is 2nd time up I assume everything is as it should be and will get the ride I am supposed to.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GBBob

If a jock a) Hasn't worked the horse in the morning, b) ridden the horse before or c) actually looked at the PPs of the races prior, then chances are Plan D...instructions..aren't going to work so well

And has reading skills above a 4th grader

[cakes44]

IMO one thing that makes the turnback from a turf route to sprint difficult to handicap is how the times on the turf are so jacked up at a place like Gulfstream, or at least they have been in the past.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Kasept

TFM ("the fat man") brought up a point the other day when I cited BTW's (blackthroatedwind) belief that the long-successful turnback angle is blunted when tried in grass sprints.

Maybe it's because they go so slow in some of the turf routes. They only run hard the last part. Seems like in the main track races they are actually working for most of the race. Does the turnback angle work better if they are going from dirt route to turf sprint?

[SCUDSBROTHER]

I think Nick Hines was a guy who gave quite detailed instructions, and the jocks had a dartboard in the jock's room with his photo on it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

I think Nick Hines was a guy who gave quite detailed instructions, and the jocks had a dartboard in the jock's room with his photo on it.

They were afraid he would eat them after the race

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

They were afraid he would eat them after the race

Joy Scott

[JohnGalt1]

A few things that are important when looking at a horse cutting back from a turf route to sprint are 1) an accurate set of pars, 2) is the horse bred to excell in sprints?, 3) if only 1-3 turf races, is it bred for the grass? 4) Does the horse have thr "right" running style for the track?

I'm sure there are others, but I think these cover the situation pretty well.