Hall of Fame? Yes or No

[Cannon Shell]

Assuming they finish as expected.

Ichiro

Vlad Guerrero

Jim Thome

John Smoltz

Johnny Damon

Trevor Hoffman

Todd Helton

Chipper Jones

Bobby Abreu

Gary Sheffield

Miguel Tejada

Andy Pettite

[dylbert]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Assuming they finish as expected.

Ichiro YES

Vlad Guerrero NO

Jim Thome NO

John Smoltz NO

Johnny Damon NO

Trevor Hoffman YES

Todd Helton YES

Chipper Jones YES

Bobby Abreu NO

Gary Sheffield NO

Miguel Tejada LOL NO NO NO

Andy Pettite NO

my take above...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dylbert

my take above...

Helton yes but Vlad no?

[Crown@club]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Assuming they finish as expected.

Ichiro - Yes

Vlad Guerrero - Yes

Jim Thome - Yes

John Smoltz - Yes

Johnny Damon - No

Trevor Hoffman - Should be (15 yr process?)

Todd Helton - Yes

Chipper Jones - Yes

Bobby Abreu - No - Andre Dawson factor

Gary Sheffield - No

Miguel Tejada - No

Andy Pettite - NO

Smoltz would have to be a definite.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Crown@club

Smoltz would have to be a definite.

I'm in the yes camp for Smoltz too.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I'm in the yes camp for Smoltz too.

What about the rest?

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Assuming they finish as expected.

Ichiro Yes

Vlad Guerrero No

Jim Thome Yes

John Smoltz Yes

Johnny Damon No

Trevor Hoffman Yes

Todd Helton No

Chipper Jones Yes

Bobby Abreu No

Gary Sheffield Yes

Miguel Tejada No

Andy Pettite No

I think 500 Hr's gets you in.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I think 500 Hr's gets you in.

So you take nothing else into consideration?

[randallscott35]

How many of these guys did roids?

Quite a few. Helton was on the 2003 list.

[Crown@club]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

How many of these guys did roids?

Quite a few. Helton was on the 2003 list.

What list?

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Crown@club

What list?

The 103 people of which the government got. He is rumored to be on there, been coming out in drips and drabs.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So you take nothing else into consideration?

No, but I really don't think of a guy like Gary Sheffield as a Hall of Famer, but I think that's the number that will eventually get him in.

[Cannon Shell]

Guerrero and Helton have better numbers than quite a few current hall of famers.

Guererro should be a cinch. He was one of the top 5 all around players for the majority of his career, mostly playing in parks that dont favor hitters. He had the best arm in baseball outside of Ichiro before he got hurt though he was never a great outfielder.

Like Guerrero, Helton has numbers and has been injury plagued but played in Coors which means he should be held to a higher standard.

Ichiro is a lock as is Chipper Jones.
Hoffman is deserving and likely.
IMO Smoltz should be in easy.
Damon is a no as is Pettite (not because they are Yankees either)
Abreu probably wont do enough

Thome and Sheffield are the toughest for me.

Sheffield played 21 seasons and ran up some nice career numbers but is still 300 hits shy of 3000. Out of 21 years he had 8 really good seasons, so he actually had more subpar seasons than really good ones. And this is during the juice era where numbers are generally inflated 20% or so. He was a terrible fielder at a bunch of positions and has been linked to steroids which makes his top seasons at later ages suspicious. I'd say no to him.

Thome is similar in that he has played a long time and was limited in most areas except for power hitting. Despite being known for HR's he only led the league 1 time. He made 5 all star teams which is less than most HoF'ers. He was in the top 5 MVP voting 1 time. He never won any awards. He did lead the league in k's 3 times. He only has 2100 hits despite the length of his career. He is ranked 23rd all time in slugging % and is 48th in OBP though both are positively effected by the era he played in. He is 10th lifetime in walks but that is countered by being 2nd all time in strikeouts. His numbers are very similar to harmon Killebrew but he played during the modern deadball era. I would be surprised if he gets in but I dont know if I would vote for him.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Guerrero and Helton have better numbers than quite a few current hall of famers.

Guererro should be a cinch. He was one of the top 5 all around players for the majority of his career, mostly playing in parks that dont favor hitters. He had the best arm in baseball outside of Ichiro before he got hurt though he was never a great outfielder.

Like Guerrero, Helton has numbers and has been injury plagued but played in Coors which means he should be held to a higher standard.

Ichiro is a lock as is Chipper Jones.
Hoffman is deserving and likely.
IMO Smoltz should be in easy.
Damon is a no as is Pettite (not because they are Yankees either)
Abreu probably wont do enough

Thome and Sheffield are the toughest for me.

Sheffield played 21 seasons and ran up some nice career numbers but is still 300 hits shy of 3000. Out of 21 years he had 8 really good seasons, so he actually had more subpar seasons than really good ones. And this is during the juice era where numbers are generally inflated 20% or so. He was a terrible fielder at a bunch of positions and has been linked to steroids which makes his top seasons at later ages suspicious. I'd say no to him.

Thome is similar in that he has played a long time and was limited in most areas except for power hitting. Despite being known for HR's he only led the league 1 time. He made 5 all star teams which is less than most HoF'ers. He was in the top 5 MVP voting 1 time. He never won any awards. He did lead the league in k's 3 times. He only has 2100 hits despite the length of his career. He is ranked 23rd all time in slugging % and is 48th in OBP though both are positively effected by the era he played in. He is 10th lifetime in walks but that is countered by being 2nd all time in strikeouts. His numbers are very similar to harmon Killebrew but he played during the modern deadball era. I would be surprised if he gets in but I dont know if I would vote for him.

I once heard someone say, that if you really have to think about the player then no should probably be the answer.

Besides he Coors field thing, I just feel like Helton has flown below the radar for much of his career. It seemed like he never got the recognition he deserved and when it comes time for the Hall I think all that lack of press/spotlight might end up hurting him.

For Vlad, although he has had some great season. I just don't think he ever reached that level that everyone thought he was destined for. I know thats unfair, but unfortunately it might come into play come voting time.

Sheff is a guy that's on the fence and from what I remember he wasn't the most popular guy with the media either. That and the allegations might hurt him, but I do think he will eventually end up in.

You make valid points about Thome. He did also play in hitter's parks, but I really think his HR's will carry him in.

[Gander]

I would definetely give a NO to Sheffield. If he gets in, it opens the door to a lot of others who are kind of marginal - borderline guys (to even be considered).

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Guerrero would need to do something huge in the post to counterweight that 2005 post season he had (horrible.) Totally let his team down. He has slightly more intellect than a cow. I don't think he'll make it.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I once heard someone say, that if you really have to think about the player then no should probably be the answer.

Besides he Coors field thing, I just feel like Helton has flown below the radar for much of his career. It seemed like he never got the recognition he deserved and when it comes time for the Hall I think all that lack of press/spotlight might end up hurting him.

For Vlad, although he has had some great season. I just don't think he ever reached that level that everyone thought he was destined for. I know thats unfair, but unfortunately it might come into play come voting time.

Sheff is a guy that's on the fence and from what I remember he wasn't the most popular guy with the media either. That and the allegations might hurt him, but I do think he will eventually end up in.

You make valid points about Thome. He did also play in hitter's parks, but I really think his HR's will carry him in.

That is complete bs. Your exposure to a player is directly linked to where he plays and you live.

If Vlad didnt reach that level, what exactly would that level need to be? His closest comparisons are Willie, Freaky and the Duke!

Vlad Guerrero was twice the baseball player that Jim Thome was. He shouldnt be unfairly judged because he was unfortunately drafted by Montreal.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Guerrero and Helton have better numbers than quite a few current hall of famers.

Guererro should be a cinch. He was one of the top 5 all around players for the majority of his career, mostly playing in parks that dont favor hitters. He had the best arm in baseball outside of Ichiro before he got hurt though he was never a great outfielder.

Like Guerrero, Helton has numbers and has been injury plagued but played in Coors which means he should be held to a higher standard.

Ichiro is a lock as is Chipper Jones.
Hoffman is deserving and likely.
IMO Smoltz should be in easy.
Damon is a no as is Pettite (not because they are Yankees either)
Abreu probably wont do enough

Thome and Sheffield are the toughest for me.

Sheffield played 21 seasons and ran up some nice career numbers but is still 300 hits shy of 3000. Out of 21 years he had 8 really good seasons, so he actually had more subpar seasons than really good ones. And this is during the juice era where numbers are generally inflated 20% or so. He was a terrible fielder at a bunch of positions and has been linked to steroids which makes his top seasons at later ages suspicious. I'd say no to him.

Thome is similar in that he has played a long time and was limited in most areas except for power hitting. Despite being known for HR's he only led the league 1 time. He made 5 all star teams which is less than most HoF'ers. He was in the top 5 MVP voting 1 time. He never won any awards. He did lead the league in k's 3 times. He only has 2100 hits despite the length of his career. He is ranked 23rd all time in slugging % and is 48th in OBP though both are positively effected by the era he played in. He is 10th lifetime in walks but that is countered by being 2nd all time in strikeouts. His numbers are very similar to harmon Killebrew but he played during the modern deadball era. I would be surprised if he gets in but I dont know if I would vote for him.

Interesting that for you, Jones is a lock while Thome and Sheffield are questionable. I looked at their career 162g averages and they are all very similar:

Jones 32-108, .307 avg, .406 obp, 11 sb, 109 runs
Sheff 32-105, .292 avg, .393 obp, 16 sb, 103 runs
Thome 40-111, .277 avg, .404 obp, 1 sb, 105 runs

Here's where I come out on it. When I have to debate their numbers or compare their cases against other players, that's a no for me. To me, a hall of famer is one that I say yes to without having to look at the numbers to make their case or say "well, since so and so's in, he should be in too." Guerrero was one of the most feared hitters in the game for a number of years and we remember that without looking up any numbers. Ichiro is one of the best hitters in the history of the game. No need to look up any numbers to remind you of that.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Interesting that for you, Jones is a lock while Thome and Sheffield are questionable. I looked at their career 162g averages and they are all very similar:

Jones 32-108, .307 avg, .406 obp, 11 sb, 109 runs
Sheff 32-105, .292 avg, .393 obp, 16 sb, 103 runs
Thome 40-111, .277 avg, .404 obp, 1 sb, 105 runs

Here's where I come out on it. When I have to debate their numbers or compare their cases against other players, that's a no for me. To me, a hall of famer is one that I say yes to without having to look at the numbers to make their case or say "well, since so and so's in, he should be in too." Guerrero was one of the most feared hitters in the game for a number of years and we remember that without looking up any numbers. Ichiro is one of the best hitters in the history of the game. No need to look up any numbers to remind you of that.

Those numbers are the only things that Shef and Thome were good at. Not to mention that Jones was a far better fielder than both and played an actual defensive position his whole career. Should a DH/horrific fielder be downgraded against a position player? Absolutely

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I think 500 Hr's gets you in.

omg