Speaking of things that will proably eventually kill you...

[Calzone Lord]

Bacon cheeseburger, with egg, with two glazed donuts as buns.

Would you hit that?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Bacon cheeseburger, with egg, with two glazed donuts as buns.

Would you hit that?

except for the donuts, that stuff is actually pretty decent.

that whole saturated fats is bad for you is complete nonsense.

there is a place i saw on tv, i think near atlanta, that does a similar burger. it's more bacon, meat and eggs than that, but what makes it really appealing is that instead of buns, it uses grilled cheese sandwiches to hold it all together. That's right, grilled cheese sandwiche(S) as buns.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

except for the donuts, that stuff is actually pretty decent.

that whole saturated fats is bad for you is complete nonsense.

there is a place i saw on tv, i think near atlanta, that does a similar burger. it's more bacon, meat and eggs than that, but what makes it really appealing is that instead of buns, it uses grilled cheese sandwiches to hold it all together. That's right, grilled cheese sandwiche(S) as buns.

I think the evidence that saturated fats are bad for you is overwhelming. I know that you can find some studies out there that contradict this. I'm sure we could go back and forth on this. I could post one study that shows how bad it is for you and then you could post a study that shows the opposite.

I think Dean Ornish's study was very convincing. They did angiograms on a bunch of heart patients and measured the degree that their arteries were blocked. They put half of these people on a vegan diet and put the other half on a diet where they ate chicken and fish instead of red meat. They waited for 6 months or so and then repeated the angiograms. The peoples' arteries who ate the vegan diet had totally opened up. The blockages in their arteries were reduced significantly. The people in the other group showed no real improvement.

Here is an article from a guy whose view is middle of the road. He thinks that not all saturated fats are created the same. He thinks that some are really bad for you while others are not. He thinks it is ok to eat some saturated fat.

http://juvenon.com/jhj/vol4no09.htm

[Indian Charlie]

The study that initially demonized saturated fats, the authors were later caught for falsifying their data.

In which manner did they falsify their data, you might ask?

They used trans fats in place of saturated fats (in tests) to justify the use of trans fats to replace saturated fats in the American diet!

You cannot make this stuff up!

As for the studies you mention? Keep in mind most 'meat' animals in this country are raised on mostly grain based diets. Grains (I am including seeds as well) are loaded with polyunsaturated fats, which are beyond any shadow of a doubt HORRIBLE for you. Studies purporting to espouse the health benefits of PUFAs (poly unsaturated fatty acids) are invariably funded by groups that make a lot of money from growing corn, rapeseed, etc..


Ornish's study has been thoroughly debunked.

I urge you to read Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon, head of the Weston A. Price foundation. Get it on Amazon.

I know far too many people that have remarkably improved their health by ditching veggie oils and going back to our more traditional type of diet, the ones our ancestors would have eaten.

Remember, all of these Western style diseases (heart disease, diabetes, etc..) didn't go epidemic until shortly after the food pyramid was introduced and saturated fats were demonized.

One of the main targets of those initial studies was coconut oil! Coconut oil is great stuff. You can eat coconut oil to lose weight, it fights infection and also provides quick energy. It also is highly resistant to oxidation which makes it a great choice for cooking oil.

With any polyunsaturated fatty acid that you buy in the store, you are buying rancid fats before you even open it. I mean rancid in the chemical sense, in that the oil is badly oxidized well before it reaches the consumer. This is not even debatable.

Oxidized oils are cancer and heart disease in a bottle.

[Sightseek]

Charlie -

Have you seen King Corn or Food, Inc.?

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Charlie -

Have you seen King Corn or Food, Inc.?

Yes to both.

Knew all that stuff already, but it was nice to see an effort being made to de-educate the masses.

Why do you ask?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

The study that initially demonized saturated fats, the authors were later caught for falsifying their data.

In which manner did they falsify their data, you might ask?

They used trans fats in place of saturated fats (in tests) to justify the use of trans fats to replace saturated fats in the American diet!

You cannot make this stuff up!

As for the studies you mention? Keep in mind most 'meat' animals in this country are raised on mostly grain based diets. Grains (I am including seeds as well) are loaded with polyunsaturated fats, which are beyond any shadow of a doubt HORRIBLE for you. Studies purporting to espouse the health benefits of PUFAs (poly unsaturated fatty acids) are invariably funded by groups that make a lot of money from growing corn, rapeseed, etc..


Ornish's study has been thoroughly debunked.

I urge you to read Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon, head of the Weston A. Price foundation. Get it on Amazon.

I know far too many people that have remarkably improved their health by ditching veggie oils and going back to our more traditional type of diet, the ones our ancestors would have eaten.

Remember, all of these Western style diseases (heart disease, diabetes, etc..) didn't go epidemic until shortly after the food pyramid was introduced and saturated fats were demonized.

One of the main targets of those initial studies was coconut oil! Coconut oil is great stuff. You can eat coconut oil to lose weight, it fights infection and also provides quick energy. It also is highly resistant to oxidation which makes it a great choice for cooking oil.

With any polyunsaturated fatty acid that you buy in the store, you are buying rancid fats before you even open it. I mean rancid in the chemical sense, in that the oil is badly oxidized well before it reaches the consumer. This is not even debatable.

Oxidized oils are cancer and heart disease in a bottle.

My understanding is that there is a huge difference between grass-fed meat and the grain-fed meat that 99.999% of us eat. I have heard that grass-fed meat is not bad for you at all.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

My understanding is that there is a huge difference between grass-fed meat and the grain-fed meat that 99.999% of us eat. I have heard that grass-fed meat is not bad for you at all.

I only eat grass-fed, for more reasons than just my own health.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Ornish's study has been thoroughly debunked.

There have obviously been a lot of studies that contradict each other. I don't doubt that you have seen evidence that you think debunks Ornish's work. But I think there have been a ton of studies that confirm his work. I have never heard that his worked was debunked. I don't think mainstream medicine considers his work debunked (not that mainstream medicine is always right). Ornish is world renowned.

Let's take a guy like Bob Baffert. He eats practically nothing but red meat. He had a heart attack. After he had the stents put in, the first thing the doctor told him was to cut way down on his red meat intake. He told him not to eat red meat more than twice a month.

As you said, there are other factors. It depends whether the red meat is grass-fed or not. But overall I think that most doctors would agree that for someone in Baffert's situation, they should undoubtedly cut down on meat and fried foods and eat more fruits and vegetables.

I don't think you can go wrong eating a lot of fruits and vegetables along with a little bit of fish (and occasionally some chicken or fish).

Look at Bill Clinton. He had a terrible diet and he had to keep having heart procedures. He finally became a 95% vegan (he eats fish twice a week). He is doing great now. Do you think he is making a mistake being on this new diet? I don't. I think this new diet will save his life.

By the way, Ornish is one of Clinton's doctors.

[Clinton says he was inspired to follow a low-fat, plant-based diet by several doctors, including Dean Ornish, author of Dr. Dean Ornish's Program for Reversing Heart Disease. Ornish has been working with Clinton as one of his consulting physicians since 1993."

After Clinton's angioplasty and stents in 2010, Ornish says he contacted the former president "and I indicated that the moderate diet and lifestyle changes he'd made didn't go far enough to prevent his heart disease from progressing, but our research proved that more intensive changes could actually reverse it," he says.]

http://yourlife.usatoday.com/fitness...ory/50111212/1

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

There have obviously been a lot of studies that contradict each other. I don't doubt that you have seen evidence that you think debunks Ornish's work. But I think there have been a ton of studies that confirm his work. I have never heard that his worked was debunked. I don't think mainstream medicine considers his work debunked (not that mainstream medicine is always right). Ornish is world renowned.

Let's take a guy like Bob Baffert. He eats practically nothing but red meat. He had a heart attack. After he had the stents put in, the first thing the doctor told him was to cut way down on his red meat intake. He told him not to eat red meat more than twice a month.

As you said, there are other factors. It depends whether the red meat is grass-fed or not. But overall I think that most doctors would agree that for someone in Baffert's situation, they should undoubtedly cut down on meat and fried foods and eat more fruits and vegetables.

I don't think you can go wrong eating a lot of fruits and vegetables along with a little bit of fish (and occasionally some chicken or fish).

Look at Bill Clinton. He had a terrible diet and he had to keep having heart procedures. He finally became a 95% vegan (he eats fish twice a week). He is doing great now. Do you think he is making a mistake being on this new diet? I don't. I think this new diet will save his life.

By the way, Ornish is one of Clinton's doctors.

[Clinton says he was inspired to follow a low-fat, plant-based diet by several doctors, including Dean Ornish, author of Dr. Dean Ornish's Program for Reversing Heart Disease. Ornish has been working with Clinton as one of his consulting physicians since 1993."

After Clinton's angioplasty and stents in 2010, Ornish says he contacted the former president "and I indicated that the moderate diet and lifestyle changes he'd made didn't go far enough to prevent his heart disease from progressing, but our research proved that more intensive changes could actually reverse it," he says.]

http://yourlife.usatoday.com/fitness...ory/50111212/1

Commercially raised meats are garbage. Thus, any study comparing the health effects of meats to a vegetable based diet, if based on very typical meats, is meaningless.

Properly raised meats are, in fact, a health food. Feed lot meat is worse than eating garbage.

Doctors are almost always wrong when it comes to dietary issues, as their training in medical school 1. includes next to nothing about nutrition and 2. what little they are given comes from biased sources, mainly from bogus studies.

One thing most people fail to consider about vegetarianism, or a mostly plant based diet.

There are crucial fat soluble vitamins that are next to impossible to get from plants. Vitamin D (I know, not really a vitamin), PREFORMED vitamin A (carotenes are not efficiently converted to vitamin A), and K (unless you like grazing on fresh grasses).

These nutrients are badly lacking in the American diet and the best source for them is grass fed meats and dairy. I am talking about food sources, as obviously you can make your own vitamin D.

Also, some of the B vitamins are difficult to obtain from plants.

I LOVE that people who eat primarily veggies often end up taking nutritional yeast to get B12. What most people don't realize is that B12 is added to yeast.

Yet another thing to consider...

Almost all plants are grown in soils that have become badly depleted in important minerals. You might think by choosing organic veggies that you are getting sufficient minerals, but the sad truth is, even organic veggies are badly under mineralized.

So, you need to eat A LOT of them to get anywhere near the minerals you need. The flip side of this is that most plants produce some sort of chemical defenses, than in small amounts are very beneficial to our health, but in larger amounts are toxic.

Then again, most plants that we eat have been selectively bred for a long time to minimize these substances. Notice how few people enjoy eating bitter plants anymore?

Me? I love ocean veggies, like kelp, dulse, etc. Absolutely loaded with minerals, and no toxic issues. I also like to collect wild plants and mushrooms, but that is not really feasible for most people.

I know I mentioned this book in a previous post, but I really think you would find this book interesting. At least look at it's product page on Amazon, read what it is about, and maybe read some of the user reviews. It's well written and loaded with lot's of really interesting information, and many delicious and easy recipes.

http://www.amazon.com/Nourishing-Tra...5712024&sr=8-1

Like any topic that tends to draw the zealot like types, one needs to keep an open perspective about these things. If you see any reviews that might be over the top (not saying that there are any for sure), take them with a grain of salt.

It's a wonderful book that could potentially let you see things in a different light.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Bacon cheeseburger, with egg, with two glazed donuts as buns.

Would you hit that?

not in that combination. i can count on one hand the amount of times i've eaten donuts in the last decade. not much of a burger person. i eat eggs, soft scrambled.

ah, but the bacon. oh, hell yes, i'll eat the bacon.

[Indian Charlie]

Yeah, donuts are disgusting.

Where is that burger from? Some place in drErie?

[Danzig]

on diners drive ins and dives they had a place that makes the burger from hell.

patties with grilled cheese sandwiches rather than bun. and a big fried egg in it. i think it had something else with it as well. i don't know how you could take a bite, the thing was huge.



er....that's what she said.

[Rupert Pupkin]

There is a new restaurant in Vegas that brags about how unhealthy their food is. It's called The Heart Attack Cafe Grill. So far two people have collapsed while eating there. The restaurant serves a 6,000-calorie burger called "Triple Bypass Burger". While you're eating there you might also want to order the "flatliner fries".

By the way, if you weigh over 350 pounds, you get to eat there for free.


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow...191647836.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ss-Burger.html

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

By the way, if you weigh over 350 pounds, you get to eat there for free.

How can that be profitable for them?

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Bacon cheeseburger, with egg, with two glazed donuts as buns.

Would you hit that?

Oh eeew there isn't one thing in that picture I'd eat let alone the whole monstrosity.

Sick!