Jockey Colonies -- few real good ones are out there

[Calzone Lord]

This would actually make an interesting topic.

I've seen a few people cut up Presque Isle's lately, but objectively speaking, they might be a borderline top 5 jockey colony.

Francisco Torres couldn't get anything going at PID, and he left for Arlington Park and was leading rider at Arlington in 2012 by both total wins and win percentage.

Taylor Rice had the bug here last year, and was just 9-for-90. She went to Hawthorne and was 41-for-196 (21% wins) $2.34 ROI and she even did OK in New York until she lost her bug.

Scott Spieth goes to Cleveland and rides Thistle Downs on PID's dark days. He's 27-for-79 (34% wins) $2.10 ROI at Thistle. Meanwhile, Speith is just 7th in the standings at PID, winning at 13% with a $1.00 ROI

Deshawn Parker is the king-pin at Mountaineer, year in and year out. He's winning 27% at MNR this year...he rides PID on the MNR's dark days and is just 12% at PID. Last year he was 34-for-403 (8% wins) at PID, while utterly dominating MNR's standings.

The leading rider at Tampa Bay Downs this year was Antiono Gallardo (122-for-422) 27% wins. Ronnie Allen JR. was 2nd in the standings at 22% wins. Daniel Centeno was 3rd.

By comparison, Gallardo is also the leading rider at PID, but with just 21% wins. Ronnie Allen is 3rd in the standings at PID, and with just 17% wins. Meanwhile, Centeno is the leading rider at Delaware Park.

Willie Martinez is currently 9th in the standings at PID 24-for-195 (12% wins) and he won a Breeders' Cup Sprint with Trinniberg, not too long ago.

Obviously, New York and California are 1-2 by a long way. Monmouth Park is a one man show. Paco Lopez (120 wins) has more than double the next guy (54)

Churchill's running a mini meet and is 3rd best. Edgard Zayas, a guy who hasn't even been riding for 3 years is absolutely dominating Gulfstream's standings over Ramsey Zimmerman...he was a very good Remington and EVD jock, but ran into drug problems and hard times.

There really are few good ones left out there.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

This would actually make an interesting topic.

I've seen a few people cut up Presque Isle's lately, but objectively speaking, they might be a borderline top 5 jockey colony.

Francisco Torres couldn't get anything going at PID, and he left for Arlington Park and was leading rider at Arlington in 2012 by both total wins and win percentage.

Taylor Rice had the bug here last year, and was just 9-for-90. She went to Hawthorne and was 41-for-196 (21% wins) $2.34 ROI and she even did OK in New York until she lost her bug.

Scott Spieth goes to Cleveland and rides Thistle Downs on PID's dark days. He's 27-for-79 (34% wins) $2.10 ROI at Thistle. Meanwhile, Speith is just 7th in the standings at PID, winning at 13% with a $1.00 ROI

Deshawn Parker is the king-pin at Mountaineer, year in and year out. He's winning 27% at MNR this year...he rides PID on the MNR's dark days and is just 12% at PID. Last year he was 34-for-403 (8% wins) at PID, while utterly dominating MNR's standings.

The leading rider at Tampa Bay Downs this year was Antiono Gallardo (122-for-422) 27% wins. Ronnie Allen JR. was 2nd in the standings at 22% wins. Daniel Centeno was 3rd.

By comparison, Gallardo is also the leading rider at PID, but with just 21% wins. Ronnie Allen is 3rd in the standings at PID, and with just 17% wins. Meanwhile, Centeno is the leading rider at Delaware Park.

Willie Martinez is currently 9th in the standings at PID 24-for-195 (12% wins) and he won a Breeders' Cup Sprint with Trinniberg, not too long ago.

Obviously, New York and California are 1-2 by a long way. Monmouth Park is a one man show. Paco Lopez (120 wins) has more than double the next guy (54)

Churchill's running a mini meet and is 3rd best. Edgard Zayas, a guy who hasn't even been riding for 3 years is absolutely dominating Gulfstream's standings over Ramsey Zimmerman...he was a very good Remington and EVD jock, but ran into drug problems and hard times.

There really are few good ones left out there.

Isnt the gap between NY and Cali bigger then ever right now? Stevens is out, Gomez is coked out....... You could argue those are the top 2 in Cali. That leaves us with Bejarano, Talmo and Smith. Even the 5th and 6th guys in NY like Lezcano and Maragh would go out there and dominate in IMO.

[Pants II]

You only have to look at the top level to realize how bad the colony is as a whole.

No way a 49 year old in any athletic profession gets the majority of top "gigs"

Except modern day thoroughbred racing in America.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Pants II

No way a 49 year old in any athletic profession gets the majority of top "gigs"

How about the comeback Stevens made at age 50?

Mike Smith is currently 49 years old. He rode regularly at Canterbury Park in 1986, 1988. Amusingly, he finished one spot behind Ronnie Allen Jr. in the Canterbury jockey standings in 1988.

[rgustafson]

That got me thinking about another "old guy" still riding pretty good. In 1985, Canterbury's first year, Mike Smith, then 20, was leading rider. the late Ron Hansen was second and an 18 year old kid came up from down in Louisiana to finish third. Gerard Melancon, Geemoney, the king of the bayou. Not at the level of Smith of course but still making good money in the irons.

[Bogey]

The Gulfstream Park winter (Championship) meet is hands down the best jockey colony assembled throughout the year. They pretty much have the best riders from New York, Kentucky, Delaware, New Jersey, Florida, and Canada.

[Pants II]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

How about the comeback Stevens made at age 50?

Mike Smith is currently 49 years old. He rode regularly at Canterbury Park in 1986, 1988. Amusingly, he finished one spot behind Ronnie Allen Jr. in the Canterbury jockey standings in 1988.

Stevens is a cerebral rider in comparison to other jockeys. Same with Mike Smith.

That's not saying these guys are perfect. They're just reliable.

Now the question comparing how these jockeys would do against the colony in the 80's?

Great question. I'd imagine a few of them would be much, much better riders. Because if they didn't improve they wouldn't last long.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Deshawn Parker is the king-pin at Mountaineer, year in and year out. He's winning 27% at MNR this year...he rides PID on the MNR's dark days and is just 12% at PID. Last year he was 34-for-403 (8% wins) at PID, while utterly dominating MNR's standings.

The leading rider at Tampa Bay Downs this year was Antiono Gallardo (122-for-422) 27% wins. Ronnie Allen JR. was 2nd in the standings at 22% wins. Daniel Centeno was 3rd.

By comparison, Gallardo is also the leading rider at PID, but with just 21% wins. Ronnie Allen is 3rd in the standings at PID, and with just 17% wins. Meanwhile, Centeno is the leading rider at Delaware Park.

Deshawn Parker cannot buy a decent mount at Tampa for some inexplicable reason. As a result, he's usually gone by February.

Gallarado has become first call for Jamie Ness, which certainly pads the stats...(at least at Tampa, I don't follow PID to know whether that followed suit there). He's not bad, but if given the choice between the two I'd still put RAjr up, particularly in routes.

[NTamm1215]

Deshawn Parker won the riding title at Sam Houston last year in the winter by a country mile. He actually had a very nice meet.

I think it's safe to say the best colony in the country is at Saratoga. The thing about Gulfstream in the winter is that not all of the NY guys are there, Rosie is at FG and some of the other KY guys are spread out. Saratoga brings together the best in NY, best in KY and Paco ships up for big races often enough.

[Bogey]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Deshawn Parker won the riding title at Sam Houston last year in the winter by a country mile. He actually had a very nice meet.

I think it's safe to say the best colony in the country is at Saratoga. The thing about Gulfstream in the winter is that not all of the NY guys are there, Rosie is at FG and some of the other KY guys are spread out. Saratoga brings together the best in NY, best in KY and Paco ships up for big races often enough.

Except for the Ortiz brothers who have recently emerged as arguably top tier jocks, who else stays in NY for the winter. Cornelio and Rajiv could not compete in Gulfstream on a consistent basis, so they decided to take the easier route and deal with the harsh winter. Rosie is about the only exception. Paco (16 mounts at Saratoga this summer, hardly counts for often enough) riding full time at Gulfstream more than makes up for the average jock choosing an easier meet.

Having Desormeaux, Trujillo, Carmouche, JC Caraballo, Contreras, and G Saez more than makes up the difference. Although, Saratoga has the best meet throughout the year, Gulfstream winter meet has the BEST jock colony assembled.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Bogey

Except for the Ortiz brothers who have recently emerged as arguably top tier jocks, who else stays in NY for the winter. Cornelio and Rajiv could not compete in Gulfstream on a consistent basis, so they decided to take the easier route and deal with the harsh winter. Rosie is about the only exception. Paco (16 mounts at Saratoga this summer, hardly counts for often enough) riding full time at Gulfstream more than makes up for the average jock choosing an easier meet.

Having Desormeaux, Trujillo, Carmouche, JC Caraballo, Contreras, and G Saez more than makes up the difference. Although, Saratoga has the best meet throughout the year, Gulfstream winter meet has the BEST jock colony assembled.

Gus I think Cornelio and Rajiv are betting then and of these guys......
Desormeaux, Trujillo, Carmouche, JC Caraballo, Contreras, and G Saez

[booner]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Gus I think Cornelio and Rajiv are betting then and of these guys......
Desormeaux, Trujillo, Carmouche, JC Caraballo, Contreras, and G Saez

I agree with that. Cornelio and Maragh are better than these. But I look at it like this:

After Cornelio, Maragh and the Ortiz bros, are there 6 jocks at the Aqu winter meet that can compare to the 6 listed above? I don't think so. After the top 4, NY winter gets thin.

[Bogey]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Gus I think Cornelio and Rajiv are betting then and of these guys......
Desormeaux, Trujillo, Carmouche, JC Caraballo, Contreras, and G Saez

Why, just because they ride in New York?

They both use to ride at Gulfstream and recently decided to stay in New York for the winter. I understand the money is good at the Big A. It's hard to convince me that they wouldn't move their tack back to Gulfstream for the winter if they were winning more races.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Bogey

Except for the Ortiz brothers who have recently emerged as arguably top tier jocks, who else stays in NY for the winter. Cornelio and Rajiv could not compete in Gulfstream on a consistent basis, so they decided to take the easier route and deal with the harsh winter. Rosie is about the only exception. Paco (16 mounts at Saratoga this summer, hardly counts for often enough) riding full time at Gulfstream more than makes up for the average jock choosing an easier meet.

Having Desormeaux, Trujillo, Carmouche, JC Caraballo, Contreras, and G Saez more than makes up the difference. Although, Saratoga has the best meet throughout the year, Gulfstream winter meet has the BEST jock colony assembled.

This has to be the first time in the history of the internet that anyone said having Jose Caraballo, Kendrick Carmouche and Luis Contreras in a riding colony made it the strongest in the country. Cornelio and Rajiv Maragh are Willie Shoemaker and Eddie Arcaro compared to those three titans of the turf. Rajiv has popped down for limited mounts at GP in the last two years and is 8-27 at the two championship meets. He did fine in the 2010 and 2011 meet, finishing in the top 10 both times.

Irad and Jose Ortiz would likely be top 10 riders for the "championship" portion of the meet and are not there. Neither is Rosie. Desormeaux? He was 6-63 at GP last year before picking up scraps in a depleted colony over a type of surface he rides exceptionally well in CA. Gabriel Saez has bounced around every winter spot possible (Aqueduct, Oaklawn and now GP) and simply followed Jamie Ness there for the winter. Saez is the 2nd leading rider at Monmouth with 4 more wins than Eddie Castro, who missed a month of the meet. His presence at Gulfstream is merely a blip on the radar.

[Bogey]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

This has to be the first time in the history of the internet that anyone said having Jose Caraballo, Kendrick Carmouche and Luis Contreras in a riding colony made it the strongest in the country. Cornelio and Rajiv Maragh are Willie Shoemaker and Eddie Arcaro compared to those three titans of the turf. Rajiv has popped down for limited mounts at GP in the last two years and is 8-27 at the two championship meets. He did fine in the 2010 and 2011 meet, finishing in the top 10 both times.

Irad and Jose Ortiz would likely be top 10 riders for the "championship" portion of the meet and are not there. Neither is Rosie. Desormeaux? He was 6-63 at GP last year before picking up scraps in a depleted colony over a type of surface he rides exceptionally well in CA. Gabriel Saez has bounced around every winter spot possible (Aqueduct, Oaklawn and now GP) and simply followed Jamie Ness there for the winter. Saez is the 2nd leading rider at Monmouth with 4 more wins than Eddie Castro, who missed a month of the meet. His presence at Gulfstream is merely a blip on the radar.

If you want to debate that Rosie takes Sarartoga over the top, I'll have to say that I'll take Paco over Rosie any day of the week.

The jury is still out on the Ortiz brothers.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Gallarado has become first call for Jamie Ness, which certainly pads the stats...(at least at Tampa, I don't follow PID to know whether that followed suit there)

Jamie Ness has been awful at PID this year. He's 18-for-95 (19% wins) $0.86 ROI

The win percentage seems ok, but he's stuffed a lot of short priced horses, into short-field claimers.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Jamie Ness has been awful at PID this year. He's 18-for-95 (19% wins) $0.86 ROI

The win percentage seems ok, but he's stuffed a lot of short priced horses, into short-field claimers.

From what I recall, and it's been years, admittedly...He used to have a guy at Thistledown run his string there

[South Beach Luv]

I like Woodbine's colony for a 2nd tier track. Husbands reigns supreme up there but Eurico Rosa da Silva and Contreras aren't far behind. Justin Stein is pretty solid too.

[Benny]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

Jamie Ness has been awful at PID this year. He's 18-for-95 (19% wins) $0.86 ROI.

The win percentage seems ok, but he's stuffed a lot of short priced horses, into short-field claimers.

Saw stats on Capuano/Gallardo that were pretty high % on PID big race day

[tanner12oz]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

This would actually make an interesting topic.

I've seen a few people cut up Presque Isle's lately, but objectively speaking, they might be a borderline top 5 jockey colony.

Francisco Torres couldn't get anything going at PID, and he left for Arlington Park and was leading rider at Arlington in 2012 by both total wins and win percentage.

Taylor Rice had the bug here last year, and was just 9-for-90. She went to Hawthorne and was 41-for-196 (21% wins) $2.34 ROI and she even did OK in New York until she lost her bug.

Scott Spieth goes to Cleveland and rides Thistle Downs on PID's dark days. He's 27-for-79 (34% wins) $2.10 ROI at Thistle. Meanwhile, Speith is just 7th in the standings at PID, winning at 13% with a $1.00 ROI

Deshawn Parker is the king-pin at Mountaineer, year in and year out. He's winning 27% at MNR this year...he rides PID on the MNR's dark days and is just 12% at PID. Last year he was 34-for-403 (8% wins) at PID, while utterly dominating MNR's standings.

The leading rider at Tampa Bay Downs this year was Antiono Gallardo (122-for-422) 27% wins. Ronnie Allen JR. was 2nd in the standings at 22% wins. Daniel Centeno was 3rd.

By comparison, Gallardo is also the leading rider at PID, but with just 21% wins. Ronnie Allen is 3rd in the standings at PID, and with just 17% wins. Meanwhile, Centeno is the leading rider at Delaware Park.

Willie Martinez is currently 9th in the standings at PID 24-for-195 (12% wins) and he won a Breeders' Cup Sprint with Trinniberg, not too long ago.

Obviously, New York and California are 1-2 by a long way. Monmouth Park is a one man show. Paco Lopez (120 wins) has more than double the next guy (54)

Churchill's running a mini meet and is 3rd best. Edgard Zayas, a guy who hasn't even been riding for 3 years is absolutely dominating Gulfstream's standings over Ramsey Zimmerman...he was a very good Remington and EVD jock, but ran into drug problems and hard times.

There really are few good ones left out there.

Mario Pino holds his own up there also...brought in a 150$ winner yesterday