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#1
10-13-2006, 10:38 PM
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Champions Who Failed As Stallions
On another thread ... as a result of the possible retirement of Bernardini ... a youngster ... who doesn't know very much about this game ... asked me if a champion racehorse was ever a failure as a stallion.
I replied ... "Why sure, son ... there have been lots of them" ... and supplied this partial list for him to study and ponder ... Ponder ... Citation ... Coaltown ... Hill Prince ... Iron Liege ... Tim Tam ... Nadir ... Sword Dancer ... Bald Eagle ... Crimson Satan ... Jaipur ... Ridan ... Never Bend ... Bold Lad ... Successor ... Dr. Fager ... Vitriolic ... Arts And Letters ... Personality ... Riva Ridge ... Ack Ack ... Sham ... Wajima ... Bold Forbes ... Youth ... Affirmed ... Spectacular Bid ... Lord Avie ... Temperence Hill ... Conquistador Cielo ... Devil's Bag ... Chief's Crown ... Spend A Buck ... Vanlandingham ... Turkoman ... Smile ... Alysheba ... Ferdinand ... Groovy ... Easy Goer ... Risen Star ... Rhythm ... Blushing John ... Steinlen ...Fly So Free ... Criminal Type ... Housebuster ... Arazi ... Hansel ... Black Tie Affair ... Gilded Time ... Pleasant Tap ... Rubiano ... Dehere ... Bertrando ... Timber Country ... Holy Bull ... Cigar ... Skip Away ... Lit De Justice ... Favorite Trick ... Silver Charm ... Free House ... Answer Lively ... Real Quiet ... Victory Gallop ... Artax ... Can anyone out there add a few more ... to help educate one of our eager and deserving young friends? 
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#2
10-14-2006, 12:34 AM
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I have no problem betting a VGallop horse. his offspring may not look like much, but he gets runners. I dont have the numbers in front of me, but he produces winners at every level. Repent
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#3
10-14-2006, 12:50 PM
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None of them even remotely came close to establishing a successful male line ... nor did any of them sire a long string of successful graded stakes winners ... that's how. Siring allowance winners that you cashed a bet on is not the measure of a succcessful stallion.
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#4
10-14-2006, 01:00 PM
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Just a few more recent runners who have pedigrees I'd prefer to Bernardini:
Fusaichi Pegasus Aptitude AP Valentine Medaglia d'Oro Saarland War Emblem Birdstone...you want a special dam side, his dam, Dear Birdie ranks with Toussaud, a Reines-de-Course and Blue Hen! Noble Causeway...that one is up for debate perhaps.
__________________
"Always be yourself...unless you suck!"
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#5
10-14-2006, 08:44 PM
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Siring RUNNERS is the measure of success of a stallion, not this male line obsession you seem to have. And several of the horses on your list did sire many graded SWs, even if you didn't notice. I listed for you once before the G1 winners sired by Chief's Crown and you dismissed them as irrelevant to his success as a sire, a position I found peculiar at best. You made a great sweeping statement without a scintilla of proof - "these stallions were failures because I say they were." The burden is on you to demonstrate your assertions are true, not on me to refute them. Your audience here may not have the resources to check out what you write, but I do and felt it my responsibility to point out that your statement was your personal assertion and not a statement of the opinion held by most members of the breeding industry.
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#6
10-14-2006, 11:06 PM
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... I cited 65 champions who were failures as stallions ... and you said my list was "totally absurd" ... and yet you're still dodging and dancing as you always do ... not producing a single fact or piece of relevant data ... not a blessed one ... to support your smear of me. Yeah ... you're really a pedigree "expert" ... yet you can't back up your smear tactics with a single fact. You're a phony and a creep ... and now it's evident to the entire membership of this forum. You know nothing ... you cheap poseur.
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#7
10-14-2006, 11:59 PM
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We had polite correspondence about what I expect here in terms of respectful interaction with others. You can't comply obviously, and have invited this all day.. Take a break for a few days (72 hours). If you can't treat others with a modicum of decency, I don't want you here. Nor do others who, like I, find your badgering of Pedigree Ann reprehensible. As I've stated before, I don't care what passed or passes for fair game or interaction anywhere previously. I SIMPLY WON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO TREAT OTHERS THIS WAY HERE. I'm getting tired of making this clear... IF ANYONE DOESN'T CARE FOR THE WAY I BELIEVE MEMBERS SHOULD TALK TO ONE ANOTHER, THEN FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO SPEW YOUR INVECTIVE. IT WON'T BE HERE. Steve
__________________
All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans Last edited by Kasept : 10-15-2006 at 12:01 AM.
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#8
10-15-2006, 08:51 AM
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That being said....I think Steve was absolutely right to penalize him for comments like those I quoted. He and PA have a history of disagreeing....which is fine, but BB does not seem to see the difference between PA's criticism of his list, and his decision to resort to childish name-calling. That is unfortunate.
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#9
10-14-2006, 09:33 PM
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and siring a few stakes winners a year and nothing else is not the measure of a successful sire either. and how the hell do you want VGallop, Free House or Holy Bull to establish a successful male line? they have been at stud for less than a decade or are now dead. Repent
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#11
10-15-2006, 11:32 AM
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#12
10-14-2006, 03:06 AM
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This list is absurd. It includes many stallions - like Ack Ack, Affirmed, Lord Avie, Conquistador Cielo, Devil's Bag, too many to list - who had good, productive careers as stallions. So they never led the sire lists; a lot of good sires don't . Many of those named figured among the top 10 or 20 during their careers. Horses who sire 9% SWs are not failures. Now Personality, that was a failure.
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#13
10-14-2006, 07:31 AM
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But the poster was trying to put into context how the performance of some in the shed fall short of their performances on the track.
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#15
10-14-2006, 01:19 PM
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... of the nearly 70 horses on it ... you cite only 5 possible exceptions ... and provide no data ... none whatsoever ... to support your insipid ... as always ... assertions. Hey Annie-Phonie ... why don't you cite their Lifetime AEI's ... or their SW% ... or their Broodmare CI's ... or their lists of successful sons at stud? Huh ... huh ... huh? Or could it be .. once again .. that you're full of crap ... and haven't the slightest idea of what you're saying?
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#16
10-14-2006, 03:52 PM
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She's supposed to be a pedigree "expert" ... and she calls my post "totally absurd" ... yet she cites not a single fact ... not a single piece of data ... not a single Lifetime AEI, SW%, CI, or any other statistic ... to back up her claim that the 67 champions I cited weren't failures at stud. This happens all the time, my friends ... Last edited by Kasept : 10-14-2006 at 10:02 PM.
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#17
10-14-2006, 04:23 PM
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Last edited by Kasept : 10-14-2006 at 10:01 PM.
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#18
10-14-2006, 04:45 PM
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Question...
What is everyone determining as a "long string" of stakes winners? How many before a stallion is considered a success?
__________________
http://www.facebook.com/cajungator26
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#19
10-14-2006, 06:00 PM
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That combination indicates both quantity and quality. Having one without the other makes the success more marginal. The greatest stallions had 20% stakes winners AND 5.00+ AEI. Bold Ruler had the all-time best numbers of 24% and 7.78. An AEI of less than 2.00 and less than 4% stakes winners ... means abject failure. In-between numbers are very disappointing for champion runners as stallions. Pedigree Annie doesn't have the guts to tell us the numbers of the stallions she says weren't failures. Last edited by Bold Brooklynite : 10-14-2006 at 06:04 PM.
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#20
10-14-2006, 03:51 AM
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Hybrid Mode
