The Graveyard of Champions Claims Another

[Seattleallstar]

BOOO!

[Port Conway Lane]

48 1/5, 46 4/5, 26 2/5. Flesh and Blood. Wasn't good enough. Beholder will be tough if she runs back to the Pac. Cl.

[DonGuido]

Keen Ice ran down a champion who did not have his usual kick in the last 2 furlongs . . . it's that simple. If he was on his game like before, AP would have put Frosted away by lengths and Keen Ice would have been the bridesmaid since Frosted was done too.

Normally on AP's game I was gung ho when I saw 24 and 24 +/- for the first splits but he was not on his A-Game today that's all.

Too bad, but he held off the horse that challenged him and that did him in today. Honor in defeat for sure. What's next? . . . we can only wait and see. Hope all is well for the best 3YO in the world and congrats to the Keen Ice connections. They got exactly what they wished for . . . a win over the best who was not at his best today.

I say rest him and train up to the BC Classic if he does anything else this year at all.

Let the speculation begin.

[alysheba4]

what a complete turnaround for keen ice...... A 1 win lifetime horse wins the travers stakes wow.

[Seattleallstar]

I thought when he pulled away from Frosted I thought he was still running at a pace where he could hold off and win. Maybe train up to the BC Classic would be better for TC Champion

[bare it all]

I swear if they retire this horse just because he lost... Ridiculous.

[DonGuido]

Originally Posted by Seattleallstar

I thought when he pulled away from Frosted I thought he was still running at a pace where he could hold off and win. Maybe train up to the BC Classic would be better for TC Champion

Thanks for agreeing. The best answer for AP right now.

[DonGuido]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...set-on-pharoah
I think Mr. Zayatt is knee jerking like when your all star baseball son has a chance to win the College World Series and he strikes out on split finger that he knows he can't hit . . . slow down and take a slow look at the situation.

1. AP is still the best 3YO in the world
2. He had a bad race at a place where many greats have had one
3. You have 2 months to get him ready
4. You only got beat because your horse was not your horse for one day by a horse who had only one maiden win in his career and showed little up to now . . . a FLUKE, perhaps, likely?!
5. He can easily come back and beat all who show in Classic but you won't know unless you try.
6. Stop lamenting and get it together, get with Bob and make a plan . . . then tell us what's going to happen.

Thank you and did I mention he's the best 3YO and one of the best horses overall in the world.

[DonGuido]

Originally Posted by alysheba4

what a complete turnaround for keen ice...... A 1 win lifetime horse wins the travers stakes wow.

You're kidding right?

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by DonGuido

Normally on AP's game I was gung ho when I saw 24 and 24 +/- for the first splits but he was not on his A-Game today that's all.

Your problem is you didn't read the entirety of the splits in Port conway's post right before you. After those two 24 and 24 plus they actually kept running the race. Look at Pharoah's second half mile splits in every other single race he ran a route compared to this one. IN complete totality of speed of the race, he ran the same as he did in the Belmont Stakes and Ky Derby and Ark Derby according to Beyer at least. the way he and Frosted hauled the second half mile side by side, yeah, his "normal" kick wasn't there, but who's "normal" kick would be there?

[DonGuido]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

Your problem is you didn't read the entirety of the splits in Port conway's post right before you. After those two 24 and 24 plus they actually kept running the race. Look at Pharoah's second half mile splits in every other single race he ran a route compared to this one. IN complete totality of speed of the race, he ran the same as he did in the Belmont Stakes and Ky Derby and Ark Derby according to Beyer at least. the way he and Frosted hauled the second half mile side by side, yeah, his "normal" kick wasn't there, but who's "normal" kick would be there?

Problem? AP is not "normal". Wrong on both accounts but no biggie.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by DonGuido

Problem? AP is not "normal". Wrong on both accounts but no biggie.

So what was I wrong about?? Was stating it was his fastest 2nd half mile split in any route race he's run wrong?? OF course it wasn't wrong. It was in actuality 100 percent correct. We can argue forever about whether it harms a horse's route staying power to run a very quick first half and much slower 2nd half as compared to a leisurely first half and a lightning 2nd half as happened yesterday.

Why don't you tell me Why I am wrong in what I stated instead of just stating it. I gave a detailed explanation on why I thought you were wrong. The splits are actually listed. They exist. By my stating him running a 46.7 2nd half mile was something he had never done before is not wrong as it is actually printed on paper what they ran. It is my opinion that 2nd half mile split is what did him in yesterday just as I believe Smarty Jones' 46.7 2nd half mile split in the Belmont Stakes is what did him in that day.

And we can also argue about Beyer's all day long as well about whether they mean anything or not, but those also state he ran the exact same speed that he ran in the Ark Derby, Ky Derby, and Belmont Stakes for the entire race.

[ADJMK]

I don't know what any of you are talking about. My power got knocked out yesterday so I missed the race. From what I read in my morning paper what happened is that Espinoza should have never let Keen Ice pass him in the turn and then try to catch him. That has to be right? They would never write a story without first watching the race ?

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2015/0...s-to-keen-ice/

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by DonGuido

Problem? AP is not "normal". Wrong on both accounts but no biggie.

Right there! That's the argument I've been having with him. People have been trying to elevate Pharoah to great and hall of fame status because of his accomplishments while not taking a closer look at his actual ability. The fact is, he is not a normal horse so I don't think we should settle for him doing what is considered normal. To whom much is given, much is required.

[richard burch]

I say rest him and train up to the BC Classic if he does anything else this year at all.


spot on!

rest those legs.....no problem betting him in the B.C.

[MaTH716]

Not sure why people are killing Lezcano, I thought he gave Frosted a terrific ride. If he doesn't go, everyone is bitching and moaning how they all let AP waltz on the front end. He never got in front of AP in the past with the tactics that were used, so why not switch it up?

As far as Victor goes, I thought I heard him say in an interview that he knew at the half pole that he didn't have the horse that he was use to having. That being said, he kept him engaged and AP deserves some credit for digging in and putting Frosted away.

Then there is Keen Ice, who is getting zero credit. Sure Javy let Lezcano and Frosted do all the dirty work, but I do think this horse is improving. I honestly didn't expect him to win, but he was on my pick 4 ticket (that was dead after the first leg), just cause he was the only horse that I remember on Haskell day that seemed to make up any type of ground on the Monmouth freeway (regardless of AP being geared down at the end), plus the added panel.

I just don't get all the complaining. Zayad gave us what we wanted and he got beat. That's what makes this game so great. Let's just hope they decide to run him in the Breeders Cup, that would be fun.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Not sure why people are killing Lezcano, I thought he gave Frosted a terrific ride. If he doesn't go, everyone is bitching and moaning how they all let AP waltz on the front end. He never got in front of AP in the past with the tactics that were used, so why not switch it up?

As far as Victor goes, I thought I heard him say in an interview that he knew at the half pole that he didn't have the horse that he was use to having. That being said, he kept him engaged and AP deserves some credit for digging in and putting Frosted away.

Then there is Keen Ice, who is getting zero credit. Sure Javy let Lezcano and Frosted do all the dirty work, but I do think this horse is improving. I honestly didn't expect him to win, but he was on my pick 4 ticket (that was dead after the first leg), just cause he was the only horse that I remember on Haskell day that seemed to make up any type of ground on the Monmouth freeway (regardless of AP being geared down at the end), plus the added panel.

I just don't get all the complaining. Zayad gave us what we wanted and he got beat. That's what makes this game so great. Let's just hope they decide to run him in the Breeders Cup, that would be fun.

my only concern is did he ride frosted to win or get him the best possible finish? that's a jocks job. they're only supposed to ride one horse, not two.
if he only rode to pressure ap and they both get beat, than i can see why there'd be complaints.
and keen ice and his jock ran a perfect race.

thing is, i thought ap ran a great race. except for not being able to hang on that is.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Danzig

my only concern is did he ride frosted to win or get him the best possible finish? that's a jocks job. they're only supposed to ride one horse, not two.
if he only rode to pressure ap and they both get beat, than i can see why there'd be complaints

But it wasn't like he quarter horsed him out of the gate to get the jump or pressure AP. He stalked for the first half in what was a sensible pace, cause no one else went. Then he made a move and put a nose in front at the top of the lane. A better horse just dug in and put him away. Where does he finish if he doesn't stay near the lead? He certainly doesn't win, does he finish second?

I just dont understand it. If you want to kill someone, how bout Kent? What exactly was his gameplan on Texas Red? Or did something happen with the horse that I am unaware of?

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Not sure why people are killing Lezcano, I thought he gave Frosted a terrific ride. If he doesn't go, everyone is bitching and moaning how they all let AP waltz on the front end. He never got in front of AP in the past with the tactics that were used, so why not switch it up?

As far as Victor goes, I thought I heard him say in an interview that he knew at the half pole that he didn't have the horse that he was use to having. That being said, he kept him engaged and AP deserves some credit for digging in and putting Frosted away.

Then there is Keen Ice, who is getting zero credit. Sure Javy let Lezcano and Frosted do all the dirty work, but I do think this horse is improving. I honestly didn't expect him to win, but he was on my pick 4 ticket (that was dead after the first leg), just cause he was the only horse that I remember on Haskell day that seemed to make up any type of ground on the Monmouth freeway (regardless of AP being geared down at the end), plus the added panel.

I just don't get all the complaining. Zayad gave us what we wanted and he got beat. That's what makes this game so great. Let's just hope they decide to run him in the Breeders Cup, that would be fun.

I thought Lezcano did a good job, too. As thrilling as finally getting to see a TC happen was, I puzzled over why nobody tried to go with AP in the Belmont, since it gets won on the lead pretty often. What else was Lezcano going to do here? It's clear if you leave AP alone on the lead, he wins.

Doug posted years ago about horses dueling in discussing one of Rachel Alexandra's losses, and I remember he said even if the pace doesn't seem fast, a duel takes a lot out of a horse, just from the nature of how horses interact. AP may have been tired going into the race, or Lezcano's ride on Frosted may have thrown AP out of his comfort zone and that might have taken the starch out of him. Either way, between this and Kentucky Derby being his hardest races, I think it shows that under the right conditions, he's vulnerable at 1&1/4, and that makes for a more interesting BCC. You're right; it'll be fun if he runs in it.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I thought Lezcano did a good job, too. As thrilling as finally getting to see a TC happen was, I puzzled over why nobody tried to go with AP in the Belmont, since it gets won on the lead pretty often. What else was Lezcano going to do here? It's clear if you leave AP alone on the lead, he wins.

Doug posted years ago about horses dueling in discussing one of Rachel Alexandra's losses, and I remember he said even if the pace doesn't seem fast, a duel takes a lot out of a horse, just from the nature of how horses interact. AP may have been tired going into the race, or Lezcano's ride on Frosted may have thrown AP out of his comfort zone and that might have taken the starch out of him. Either way, between this and Kentucky Derby being his hardest races, I think it shows that under the right conditions, he's vulnerable at 1&1/4, and that makes for a more interesting BCC. You're right; it'll be fun if he runs in it.

yeah, there's a quote...it's not how fast they run, it's how they run fast.