General Horse Racing Questions

[richard burch]

For all.....

Why do some tracks never have coupled entries IE 1 / 1A, 2 / 2B etc.?
I never see them in Cali.

Do jockeys have to be at a maximum weight on race day?
I have seen a rider listed at 116 and 124 on the same day. I assume he has to show up for the lighter weight and then they can use a pad for the extra.

Can you have a double objection, one rider against another?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by richard burch

Why do some tracks never have coupled entries IE 1 / 1A, 2 / 2B etc.? I never see them in Cali.

Jurisdictions increasingly began eliminating conditions of entries to increase number of betting interests. Common ownership still generates entries in many states yet. Stakes were the first to do it and then it spread to other levels. Despite the concerns, it's much better for bettors.

Originally Posted by richard burch

Do jockeys have to be at a maximum weight on race day? I have seen a rider listed at 116 and 124 on the same day. I assume he has to show up for the lighter weight and then they can use a pad for the extra.

Yes and no. They can be overweight up to a certain level (+4#). For those that come in under, weights, are added to reach handicap imposts. A school of thought says you're better off with live weight ~ a jock at the actual number ~ than dead weight.

Originally Posted by richard burch

Can you have a double objection, one rider against another?

Absolutely.. Andy brought the one at Saratoga this summer up on ATR yesterday in fact. Plus, Jimmy Baker was on too and his Jeff Cup winner Spectacular Gem was involved in a multiple rider/multiple objection incident in the Caesar's at Indiana last time. Here's the chart call:

SPECTACULAR GEM dueled early outside of a foe, bid at the half to be clear, bore out close to the wire and bumped foes. Following objections by the riders of CRAFTY DADDY and CLINT MAROON (GB), SPECTACULAR GEM was disqualified and placed fourth. CORRUZE stalked the pace inside, shifted five wide at the eighth pole, shifted a path farther late, then came in to tighten up and bump foes late. The Stewards dismissed claims by the riders of the aforementioned runners against him.

[richard burch]

Thank you Steve.


Also hope you are feeling well and seeing clear.

[jnunan4759]

Always good info from Steve.

There are some differences state to state, but more minimal now.

Weight is a minimal factor in US racing now. When I was younger, they had 20lb. differences in Hdcp races. That could make a difference. If playing Hong Kong it's something you should look at.

One thing I like about 5 day race weeks is it gives jockeys some time to go out (or home) and have a good meal and maybe a few beers and have another day to get back to weight.

[richard burch]

Always good info from Steve.
There are some differences state to state, but more minimal now.

Weight is a minimal factor in US racing now. When I was younger, they had 20lb. differences in Hdcp races. That could make a difference. If playing Hong Kong it's something you should look at.

I still see some crazy weights in Australia. Tonight there are some that go from 134 -119 but I've seen worse. Honestly weight is my least concern out of all the handicap angles. The horse weighs 1200 lbs+. I don't think an animal that strong and powerful will feel any difference under 15 lbs on a rider. IOW; I never think "Wow! He lost because he weighed 5 more lbs than the winner.

One thing I like about 5 day race weeks is it gives jockeys some time to go out (or home) and have a good meal and maybe a few beers and have another day to get back to weight

The jocks have are a breed of their own trying to stay fit and light. Much respect for them.

[richard burch]

How do you rate them? I know that every race is different but you would probably find a few of these applicable in any race. So many options and still challenging to pick a winner.

Blinkers on / off
1st Time lasix
Jockey trainer Combo
2nd time start
Drop in class
Move up in class
Wraps on /off
Jockey switch
Trainer switch
Turf to dirt
Dirt to turf
Synthetic tracks
Stretching out
Cutting back
Pedigree
Weight
Post position
Horse for course

[jnunan4759]

Wraps are a funny one. Many trainers use them routinely on the rear to prevent "run down" and injuring the skin. They are mainly protective and when you see the material, there is not a lot to them. They are not like an Ace bandage and cannot substantially improve support for an inherit condition. Most trainers avoid the fronts if not necessary because they require work and must be put on correctly and safely so as not to unravel during the race (which I've seen and is horrifying).

It used to be an old trainer angle with claimers that they would add front wraps and hope that would scare off potential claimers of the horse. Not sure that still holds.

Most often it is that the horse, because of his action and stride, will whack his legs with his other legs and the wraps help avoid cuts and scrapes.

One factor you didn't mention is First Time Gelding. Many states and tracks are lax on reporting this, but it can be an important factor. NYRA is about the best on reporting it correctly. Be careful when a horse is coming from another track and reported as a First Time Gelding in NY as it may have been a gelding for a while. I raced a gelding in PA for 5 years and he was a gelding and was always listed as a colt. I told them multiple times and nobody ever changed it.

Often it can effect positive behavioral and physical changes and resolve issues and/or problems. Not always, but sometimes.

[richard burch]

Originally Posted by jnunan4759

Wraps are a funny one. Many trainers use them routinely on the rear to prevent "run down" and injuring the skin. They are mainly protective and when you see the material, there is not a lot to them. They are not like an Ace bandage and cannot substantially improve support for an inherit condition. Most trainers avoid the fronts if not necessary because they require work and must be put on correctly and safely so as not to unravel during the race (which I've seen and is horrifying).

It used to be an old trainer angle with claimers that they would add front wraps and hope that would scare off potential claimers of the horse. Not sure that still holds.

Most often it is that the horse, because of his action and stride, will whack his legs with his other legs and the wraps help avoid cuts and scrapes.

One factor you didn't mention is First Time Gelding. Many states and tracks are lax on reporting this, but it can be an important factor. NYRA is about the best on reporting it correctly. Be careful when a horse is coming from another track and reported as a First Time Gelding in NY as it may have been a gelding for a while. I raced a gelding in PA for 5 years and he was a gelding and was always listed as a colt. I told them multiple times and nobody ever changed it.

Often it can effect positive behavioral and physical changes and resolve issues and/or problems. Not always, but sometimes.

That's a big one! Really can change a QTR horse immediately. Forgot "Mudders" in the wet and track bias too.........and don't forget those ridglings.

[richard burch]

Wonder why it seems some tracks are connected but not really. Like a lot of Jersey horses go to Florida in the winter, Canterbury goes to Remington, Gulf stream goes to Woodbine, etc.... I wouldn't think going from dirt to synthetic and back would be a thing you wanted to do.

[richard burch]

If we disregard tradition, what is the negative about letting horses start to race at 3 instead of 2?

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by richard burch

If we disregard tradition, what is the negative about letting horses start to race at 3 instead of 2?

Scientific studies point to racing at 2 being better for soundness. If you responsibly exert stress on the bones of a 2yo, their skeletal system will ultimately be stronger for the weight that's likely to come as they grow. Now obviously you can't over-train/race them or that'll do more harm than good, but if they go without that stress, you can end up with a frame that's possibly under-prepared to handle the weight of a maturing horse. If the 2yo is already massive and gangly, there'd be some adjustment to the idea of responsible stressing of the bones because you're already dealing with a lot of weight on an immature frame.

People get emotional about the idea of protecting the poor babies, but it's not based on fact, just feeling. Surely they'd be better off waiting, etc. Not really. If you want a safer situation for horses, bone strength matters and you're more likely to get that racing at 2.

[richard burch]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Scientific studies point to racing at 2 being better for soundness. If you responsibly exert stress on the bones of a 2yo, their skeletal system will ultimately be stronger for the weight that's likely to come as they grow. Now obviously you can't over-train/race them or that'll do more harm than good, but if they go without that stress, you can end up with a frame that's possibly under-prepared to handle the weight of a maturing horse. If the 2yo is already massive and gangly, there'd be some adjustment to the idea of responsible stressing of the bones because you're already dealing with a lot of weight on an immature frame.

People get emotional about the idea of protecting the poor babies, but it's not based on fact, just feeling. Surely they'd be better off waiting, etc. Not really. If you want a safer situation for horses, bone strength matters and you're more likely to get that racing at 2.

Sounds reasonable. I think that a full year of training from 2 to 3 rather than racing maybe the better option, less stress and less green when they begin to race at 3. They would be stronger, more developed. mature and more prepared.

[richard burch]

ANYONE KNOW...what type of "gait" these horses are running in. I saw racing like this over the weekend and it looked strange. Clearly not galloping, are they thoroughbreds?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzKIlPAyYCw

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by richard burch

ANYONE KNOW...what type of "gait" these horses are running in. I saw racing like this over the weekend and it looked strange. Clearly not galloping, are they thoroughbreds?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzKIlPAyYCw

Looks like harness, just without the sulky. Hard to tell if they are trotting or pacing from the quality of the video.

[Kasept]

Hossy has it right.. It's 'RUS' standardbreds (typically trotters) racing under saddle. Euros call it Monte' style.

[richard burch]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Hossy has it right.. It's 'RUS' standardbreds (typically trotters) racing under saddle. Euros call it Monte' style.

Interesting. Thought they were thoros with some kind of unique training. I'm sure there are handicapping angles for such races.

[richard burch]

?????


Do they ever use flipping halters on thoroughbreds?

[Kitan]

Originally Posted by richard burch

I still see some crazy weights in Australia. Tonight there are some that go from 134 -119 but I've seen worse. Honestly weight is my least concern out of all the handicap angles. The horse weighs 1200 lbs+. I don't think an animal that strong and powerful will feel any difference under 15 lbs on a rider. IOW; I never think "Wow! He lost because he weighed 5 more lbs than the winner.

If we use data from Race 8 at HK this past weekend (I chose this race because it was the feature of the card), the average horse weight was approximately 1100lbs.

The top end of the weight spectrum in HK is 133lbs and the lowest 113lbs (discounting any possible apprentice weight). This works out to the carried weight being 12.1% and 10.3% of body weight (1100lbs), respectively.

If we translate this to a human weighing 180lbs, this is essentially the same as one carrying a 21.8lbs backpack and the other running carrying an 18.4lbs backpack. I know which one would be easier for me to run with!

But, let's look a bit more at that 8th race. The high weight at 130lbs had a body weight of 1008lbs, while the low weight at 116lbs had a body weight of 1305lbs. This works out to a carried weight of 12.9% and 8.9% of body weight.

Back to the 180lbs human example, one carries a 23.2lbs backpack and the other a 16.0lbs backpack. Or, if we consider that the second human weighs 30% more than the first (1300lbs vs 1000lbs horse), they still only carry 20.8lbs for 8.9% of body weight.

I'm not saying weight is the first thing you should circle on a page, but it definitely has enough of a factor that jockeys in Hong Kong are allowed a maximum of 2lbs overweight. If they (a) don't declare their overweight when the entries are finalized, and/or (b) go more than 2lbs overweight, and/or (c) don't weigh out after the race, a fine and/or suspension comes their way.