When Bonds breaks the record

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by ELA

Having Bud Selig show up, and having him, and the rest of baseball acknowledge this record being broken as if it were "clean" and "kosher" -- in my mind doesn't solve any problem. It compounds it. This doesn't put the tainted days of MLB behind us -- it traps us inside of it. At least that is the way I feel.

I think there needs to be a drastic shift in how this entire situation is being handled. The investigation(s) are a joke, owners are not being forced to address the problem and deal with it head on, and players are not being put in a position where they suffer the consequences of tainting America's pastime.

I have several retired MLB players as clients, and as friends. A few of them are in the 500 HR Club. You should listen to their passion and disgust when they talk about the game they once played and will forever love. Not that all of them are angels or hollier than thou, but I think the game needs to stop perpetuating status quo.

Eric

well i'll tell you this, there is only so much that is going to be done -us fans likeing it or not. i think youve seen just about all your going to see. i believe he does have to show up and acknowledge this most important event , and record.until we prove otherwise we let history sort it out. it was a era that was bad for baseball but part of baseball's history. as a fan if you keep holding on to it, it will ruin the game for you. must accept the fact we have new guidelines and we must impose them. if you get caught you get the boot from now on- whats done is done. we had the era of spitballs,and later after years of being banned i'm sure some would question gaylord perry etc. i feel just as bad that hank aaron's record will go down. and will always incoperate this into my thinking. he will still be the all time hr leader to me.i couldn't agree more with the old timers being upset, i would be also.i think by showing up doesnt mean its kosher, but unless you can prove it it won't help by turning a blind eye to his accomplishments either. like i said its going in the books as barry bonds all time hr leader - like it or not. whats done is done and no matter what happens thier will always be questions. time and history are the only things that will sort this out. don't let it ruin the game for you.we start anew. thats how i'm going to deal with it. i love this game and am not going to let this record and its outcome make me sit at a game and be suspicious of everone and question everything and get so cynical that i start to hate it. we will always have baseball-it may not be the most popular sport but its the most important.

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by ELA

Having Bud Selig show up, and having him, and the rest of baseball acknowledge this record being broken as if it were "clean" and "kosher" -- in my mind doesn't solve any problem. It compounds it. This doesn't put the tainted days of MLB behind us -- it traps us inside of it. At least that is the way I feel.

I think there needs to be a drastic shift in how this entire situation is being handled. The investigation(s) are a joke, owners are not being forced to address the problem and deal with it head on, and players are not being put in a position where they suffer the consequences of tainting America's pastime.

I have several retired MLB players as clients, and as friends. A few of them are in the 500 HR Club. You should listen to their passion and disgust when they talk about the game they once played and will forever love. Not that all of them are angels or hollier than thou, but I think the game needs to stop perpetuating status quo.

Eric

if i can still love horseracing and live with the cheating in this game (tho i wish they could clean it up) i can deal with a era in baseball also. heck by now i should be thinking this sport is a joke, but i'm not going to let some bad apples take it away from me.so we should sit and acknowledge todd pletcher for a eclipse award for best trainer- while he accepts it and is out on suspension at the same time. no -but there is nothing we are going to do about

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by ELA

Having Bud Selig show up, and having him, and the rest of baseball acknowledge this record being broken as if it were "clean" and "kosher" -- in my mind doesn't solve any problem. It compounds it. This doesn't put the tainted days of MLB behind us -- it traps us inside of it. At least that is the way I feel.

I think there needs to be a drastic shift in how this entire situation is being handled. The investigation(s) are a joke, owners are not being forced to address the problem and deal with it head on, and players are not being put in a position where they suffer the consequences of tainting America's pastime.

I have several retired MLB players as clients, and as friends. A few of them are in the 500 HR Club. You should listen to their passion and disgust when they talk about the game they once played and will forever love. Not that all of them are angels or hollier than thou, but I think the game needs to stop perpetuating status quo.

Eric

I really don't want to rehash the tainted era debate,but if 85% of MLB was taking "greenies" during the 80's,then the talk of steriods and Mitchells hearings should have started in a diffrent direction! How pervasive was the steriods problem?...I'll add that if the Mets' clubhouse boy was correct about wholesale use,then the whole 'crime and punishment thing' should just sit down and shut up! McGuire has the Creatine and Andro in his locker in plain sight..they were OTC so why would he think it was illegal? Sosa is self-serving, to be sure...but his bats in Cooperstown were checked for cork and came up clean. He's doing well this year,so? Bonds is in his own world,granted, and whatever Greg Anderson gave him(knowingly or not) had nothing to do with hand/eye coordination....the guy has the sweetest swing on earth(Griffey Jr #2). Bonds was and still is a workout freak(5-6hrs a day) offseason. After having said all that....MLB apparently had implicit consent to what went on in the past, and IT needs to do what it can to repair the Sport!

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

*.......next to any record

[ELA]

Originally Posted by pdrift1

well i'll tell you this, there is only so much that is going to be done -us fans likeing it or not. i think youve seen just about all your going to see. i believe he does have to show up and acknowledge this most important event , and record.until we prove otherwise we let history sort it out. it was a era that was bad for baseball but part of baseball's history. as a fan if you keep holding on to it, it will ruin the game for you. must accept the fact we have new guidelines and we must impose them. if you get caught you get the boot from now on- whats done is done. we had the era of spitballs,and later after years of being banned i'm sure some would question gaylord perry etc. i feel just as bad that hank aaron's record will go down. and will always incoperate this into my thinking. he will still be the all time hr leader to me.i couldn't agree more with the old timers being upset, i would be also.i think by showing up doesnt mean its kosher, but unless you can prove it it won't help by turning a blind eye to his accomplishments either. like i said its going in the books as barry bonds all time hr leader - like it or not. whats done is done and no matter what happens thier will always be questions. time and history are the only things that will sort this out. don't let it ruin the game for you.we start anew. thats how i'm going to deal with it. i love this game and am not going to let this record and its outcome make me sit at a game and be suspicious of everone and question everything and get so cynical that i start to hate it. we will always have baseball-it may not be the most popular sport but its the most important.

I understand your point. However, I don't think it's a question of like it or not. We are talking about the alleged regulatory body and their corporate governance -- or in this case, lack thereof. I accept that this record will be broken, and it will be acknowledged -- in the record books and as part of history. However, in my eyes, to acknowledge this as some sort of great accomplishment where it should memorialized as "absolute" -- that is just as wrong as the complete lack of governance I referred to.

In my mind, Bud Selig needs to take a stand and make a very clear statement -- right here and right now, and very different than the statement that has been put forth in the past. You cannot convene an investigation, stand up and say you are going to clean up the game, and enforce a set of rules, put the game on trial in front of a Congressional committee, and then not give the entire process validity. Well, actually you can do that -- however, by doing that you have made your statement, and it is a very bad one.

Let Bud Selig stand up and restore credibility and integrity to the process and the game. It won't happen, but I think that is what's neccessary.

Eric

[ELA]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

I really don't want to rehash the tainted era debate,but if 85% of MLB was taking "greenies" during the 80's,then the talk of steriods and Mitchells hearings should have started in a diffrent direction! How pervasive was the steriods problem?...I'll add that if the Mets' clubhouse boy was correct about wholesale use,then the whole 'crime and punishment thing' should just sit down and shut up! McGuire has the Creatine and Andro in his locker in plain sight..they were OTC so why would he think it was illegal? Sosa is self-serving, to be sure...but his bats in Cooperstown were checked for cork and came up clean. He's doing well this year,so? Bonds is in his own world,granted, and whatever Greg Anderson gave him(knowingly or not) had nothing to do with hand/eye coordination....the guy has the sweetest swing on earth(Griffey Jr #2). Bonds was and still is a workout freak(5-6hrs a day) offseason. After having said all that....MLB apparently had implicit consent to what went on in the past, and IT needs to do what it can to repair the Sport!

I think your closing statement says it all -- excellent point.

I guess it just becomes what each person thinks MLB needs to do. Everyone's standards and "repair" points are going to be different.

Eric

It's too late for MLB to do anything. They had their chance years ago and they've known about the steroids for a long time. They chose to overlook it while the sport recovered from the strike. To do anything now would be hypocritical on their part.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Pillow Pants

It's too late for MLB to do anything. They had their chance years ago and they've known about the steroids for a long time. They chose to overlook it while the sport recovered from the strike. To do anything now would be hypocritical on their part.

Pillow: how can that be? To do nothing about the past relegates the last 30 yrs to suspicion, and does not build a trust for the future for the fanbase! They have to deal with the past,put controls in place, and move on...

[pdrift1]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Pillow: how can that be? To do nothing about the past relegates the last 30 yrs to suspicion, and does not build a trust for the future for the fanbase! They have to deal with the past,put controls in place, and move on...

but the thing is eric, when you look at the game of baseball you can take that 30 years and add another 100+ years to it and you have suspicion thruout that whole time period. we could set here and question countless # of fixed games that i'm sure made a impact in the early 20th century on the standings with the black sox of 1919 being in the forefront of them all.and yes they kicked them out of baseball, but the reds are still the ws champs of 1919. it got taken care of and baseball moved on

to spitballs and doctering balls, to the giants and dodgers championship "shot heard around the world game" when the giants might have stold signs with binoculers and used lights from the outfield scoreboard to win that game. and it is true they did steal signs in the regular season just to get to that game. admitted by some of thier own players.but we still marvel at that game as one of the greatest. to corked bats and to even cheating today in one sense but still legal by stealing of signs by the runner on 2nd getting them from the catcher.

as wrong as we want to make it ,cheating has been apart of baseball from the begining, unlike any other sport. the old saying"if you aint cheating you ain't trying" is what some baseball players lived by and still do . from hal chase to albert belles corked bat and sending a player to sneak in the umps room to switch it

like pillow said its to late, the damage is done and your right to put the controls in place right now and move on. it could be never ending, i can sit here and question how many games when barry hit a hr did it help or give the giants a win. did the giants deserve to play the angels in the world series? we would have to assume the team the giants beat in the nl championship game got cheated.given barrys post season record was awful before that world series year but that year he had big hits and played a big part in thier wins to get to the ws.

i think we have to just let the past go and put it in perspective like when maris broke ruths hr single season record. maris hit 61 in 162 games compared to ruths 60 in 154. well who actually was the single season hr leader? was it fair to ruth that maris got 8 extra games, since thay changed the amount of games played? we can find faults with the game wherever we try to look. smaller ballparks now can we still compare them as equal?

i think for us older fans we know what went on and will know the truth and by putting in the controls now will still save the respect of the game for the future and its fans. baseball turned away, it was made illegal in the 80's but they never tested for it, so who is to blame, i think mlb carrys just as much the load as does the players. and in sports they are all looking for a edge.


i agree with you that we need trust but it really is to late in this situation , no use trying to rectify the past, the games have been played and recorded ,bonds hr's will not only count in the grand total but also in the box scores forever. we do need to put controls in place which have been done, though we can debate wether they are strong enuff? and move on, which is what i choose to do.but mlb and its governing body has blown it already,we deal with the past by showing we are controling it now.

dealing with the past will leave still to many unanswered questions in itself. if we don't give barry the title we will still think as fans well maybe he was just that good and wonder ? to hit the ball has nothing to do with steroids,the steroids will give you the amount of power behind it and may give you the home run but barry was cracking these way before this in pittsburgh, mabye the steroids did make the ball travel farther but a hr is a hr wether its a foot over the fence or 80 feet over. barry i believe would have got alot of those over just at a shorter distance but we will never know for sure. we will always question.

but i understand your point and what you would like to see done and if i thought it would matter i'd be for it . but i just dont think its in the best intrest of baseball when the commish won't show up, cause that also says that the last 30 years is a farce also and we will all still think the same way. time will take care of this , i honestly believe baseball will always have its fans, there is something about this sport unlike the rest, its rich history and mlb taking care of the situation now that will allow it to still be americas national pastime no matter what the other sports and thier fans may think. thru it all so far baseball is alive and thriving with attendence at its highest ever, even before the strike in 94. the steroid issue is not going to hurt this sport if mlb takes care of the situation now

[Nascar1966]

When Bonds breaks the record it will go in the who gives a sh!t category. Bonds is one of the biggest disgraces to baseball and sports in general. Hopefully someone breaks his arm with a pitch. When he breaks it shouldn't get recognized because he is one of the biggest if not biggest cheater in baseball. Hopefully he breaks the record on the road and there is no ceremony. If it was my stadium I wouldn't do anything for him.