124 Beyer for Midnight Lute

[SniperSB23]

124 for Midnight Lute yesterday, Lawyer Ron got a 118. Benny the Bull at 119 seems a bit of a stretch to me but the time was scorching.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

They ran four consecutive turf races in between those two dirt races.

I'm curious if anyone knows if the track was sealed while those turf races went and reopened?

I know the NYRA track super is big on sealing during turf races in the middle of the card - which, IMO, changes the speed of the track from the earlier races.

If anyone remember Lawyer's Ron track record setting performance - the track was sealed and reopened prior to the race Diabolical won.

It's hard to imagine Gottcha Gold defeated Lawyer Ron just a short while ago - albeit while loose on the lead at Monmouth - both of LR's wins at Saratoga have been incredible.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

They ran four consecutive turf races in between those two dirt races.

I'm curious if anyone knows if the track was sealed while those turf races went and reopened?

I know the NYRA track super is big on sealing during turf races in the middle of the card - which, IMO, changes the speed of the track from the earlier races.

If anyone remember Lawyer's Ron track record setting performance - the track was sealed and reopened prior to the race Diabolical won.

It's hard to imagine Gottcha Gold defeated Lawyer Ron just a short while ago - albeit while loose on the lead at Monmouth - both of LR's wins at Saratoga have been incredible.

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think the track was sealed between them. Everytime this meet that they have sealed the track during turf races has been when there were thunderstorms in the forecast. Yesterday the weather was perfect with no chance of thunderstorms so I doubt the track was sealed.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

They ran several turf races before the Forego and Woodward.

While those races are going - the track super will sometimes seal the main track and re-harrow it. Not sure if this happened yesterday - as I obviously wasn't there.

I'm curious if anyone who was there noticed any special attention being given to the main track in between those four consecutive turf races prior to the Forego.

[hockey2315]

I didn't notice anything. . .

[TheSpyder]

Bottom line, that's one very fast horse! If people would stop taking talant to the breeding shed how many would show like improvement. I'm talking about Lawyer Ron.

Spyder

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by TheSpyder

Bottom line, that's one very fast horse! If people would stop taking talant to the breeding shed how many would show like improvement. I'm talking about Lawyer Ron.

Spyder

Interesting point... who knows how much better these retired horses would be at older ages.

Imagine if Cigar was a bit faster early in his career and they retired him at 3?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

Interesting point... who knows how much better these retired horses would be at older ages.

Imagine if Cigar was a bit faster early in his career and they retired him at 3?

He would still been a great stud!

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He would still been a great stud!

Hee hee hee.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

It's hard to imagine Gottcha Gold defeated Lawyer Ron just a short while ago - albeit while loose on the lead at Monmouth - both of LR's wins at Saratoga have been incredible.

Following up his 116 in the Whitney with a 118 in the Woodward is certainly impressive. He is clearly the top 9f horse in the country right now.
I still believe that there is a good chance that he will regress considerably from his top figs if they ever stretch him out to 10f again. The last two times they stretched him out to 10f he regressed badly.
Going into the Derby last year he had run three consecutive races in the 94-98 beyer range. He ran a 79 in the Derby.
Going into the Classic last year he was coming off of a 103 and a 105. He ran a 92 in the Classic.
He is clearly a better horse now than he has been at any other point in his career, so while I still feel he will likely regress when stretched to 10f, it might not be enough for any of the horses in this rather lackluster "Classic division" (I hate that term) to beat him. If they ever do run him at 10f though, I will almost certainly take a stand against him.

[Bobby Fischer]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

It's hard to imagine Gottcha Gold defeated Lawyer Ron just a short while ago - albeit while loose on the lead at Monmouth - both of LR's wins at Saratoga have been incredible.

Lawyer Ron finished brilliantly in that race. Knowing the barn, and seeing Ron get that Late juice at monmouth, he was a must use in the win slot for the whitney(Ron,MagnaGraduate,DiamondStripes).

I mean yeah, wins and losses matter big time, but you rarely see a thoroughbred make a brilliant run (pretty much just Lawyer Ron,honey rider,english channel,AGS,ready's echo,twilight meteor...) . The Woodward was the 3rd consecutive brilliant finish by Ron.

Whats hard to imagine to me is that this was a Grade 2 level horse maybe even g3! A little bit on the cheap side and as much of a fan favorite as he was he was a big jackpot Underlay waiting to happen. Now he is the best finisher in the handicap division!

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by miraja2

Following up his 116 in the Whitney with a 118 in the Woodward is certainly impressive. He is clearly the top 9f horse in the country right now.
I still believe that there is a good chance that he will regress considerably from his top figs if they ever stretch him out to 10f again. The last two times they stretched him out to 10f he regressed badly.
Going into the Derby last year he had run three consecutive races in the 94-98 beyer range. He ran a 79 in the Derby.
Going into the Classic last year he was coming off of a 103 and a 105. He ran a 92 in the Classic.
He is clearly a better horse now than he has been at any other point in his career, so while I still feel he will likely regress when stretched to 10f, it might not be enough for any of the horses in this rather lackluster "Classic division" (I hate that term) to beat him. If they ever do run him at 10f though, I will almost certainly take a stand against him.

The Classic Division is at least a teeny bit more exciting than it looked around the Suburban following Invasor's retirement. (Street Sense, Saturday & Lawyer all showing up pretty well this summer)

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

The Classic Division is at least a teeny bit more exciting than it looked around the Suburban following Invasor's retirement. (Street Sense, Saturday & Lawyer all showing up pretty well this summer)

I agree that it is "a teeny bit more exciting" but it isn't exactly great. Lawyer Ron's two outings at Saratoga were certainly impressive, and would probably stamp him as one of the top 9f horses not just this year, but in the last couple of years. And - as you mention - the addition of the top two 3yos certainly adds someting to the luster, as it usually does. On the whole though I still think the division lacks a lot of depth.....especially in terms of 10f horses.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by Bobby Fischer

Lawyer Ron finished brilliantly in that race. Knowing the barn, and seeing Ron get that Late juice at monmouth, he was a must use in the win slot for the whitney(Ron,MagnaGraduate,DiamondStripes).

I mean yeah, wins and losses matter big time, but you rarely see a thoroughbred make a brilliant run (pretty much just Lawyer Ron,honey rider,english channel,AGS,ready's echo,twilight meteor...) . The Woodward was the 3rd consecutive brilliant finish by Ron.

Whats hard to imagine to me is that this was a Grade 2 level horse maybe even g3! A little bit on the cheap side and as much of a fan favorite as he was he was a big jackpot Underlay waiting to happen. Now he is the best finisher in the handicap division!

Lawyer Ron always had the talent to run this way, but as a youngster (at 3), he often wanted to go out there in front too soon and burn out his followers to win. Take a look at the Super Derby; Ron wanted to shoot out there at top speed on the backstretch, way before he needed to. He is now a more mature and settled colt, who is willing to hold off using that speedburst of his until later in the race, when the jock wants to use it.

Believe it or not, horses can improve as they mature; those who weren't hot stuff at 2 can be better at 3; some that were okay at 3 can get better at 4 or even 5, when they are fully mature. And it isn't only physical maturity; mental maturity can be a big factor in who can take it to the next level.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by miraja2

I agree that it is "a teeny bit more exciting" but it isn't exactly great. Lawyer Ron's two outings at Saratoga were certainly impressive, and would probably stamp him as one of the top 9f horses not just this year, but in the last couple of years. And - as you mention - the addition of the top two 3yos certainly adds someting to the luster, as it usually does. On the whole though I still think the division lacks a lot of depth.....especially in terms of 10f horses.

[Snarl] Racing secretaries don't want 10f horses anymore; don't write races for them (how many G1, G2, or G3 races at 10f on dirt on the East Coast circuit this year?). So come time for the biggies, we have to guess which 9f horse can carry on one more furlong.

[sumitas]

I put little stock in these speed figs. The track conditions at Saratoga have been severely criticized.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by sumitas

I put little stock in these speed figs. The track conditions at Saratoga have been severely criticized.

I don't think that really has much to do with making speed figures. However, it just seems pretty close to impossible that the Forego was that fast, a 125 now actually in Simulcast Daily. The figure maker used the same variant he did for the other sprints, but they were run much earlier in the day and surely something was done with the track.

As an aside, I'd like to thank NYRA once again for keeping their nearly unblemished record of running no other route races on the day of a big race.

[ateamstupid]

Lawyer Ron is the only horse capable of beating the three-year-olds in the Classic.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I don't think that really has much to do with making speed figures. However, it just seems pretty close to impossible that the Forego was that fast, a 125 now actually in Simulcast Daily. The figure maker used the same variant he did for the other sprints, but they were run much earlier in the day and surely something was done with the track.

As an aside, I'd like to thank NYRA once again for keeping their nearly unblemished record of running no other route races on the day of a big race.

I think that's a very important factor that is overlooked by nearly everyone. For example, take Belmont Park. Now, if a horse goes out there and runs a stakes race at 9f in 1:46 1/5, everyone goes crazy over the time and because it's the only route that day, there's nothing to compare it too. People forget though that Belmont is a track that a 1:46 1/5 is not overly fast. I mean, it's fast but it's not the same as a 1:46 1/5 would be anywhere else. I've seen so many sub-1:47's there that I can't keep count.

1:45 4/5
Go for Wand
Dispersal

1:46
Riboletta

1:46 1/5
Sharp Cat
Ghostzapper
Mineshaft
In Excess
Seattle Fitz
Seeking Daylight
Running Stag
Formal Gold
Oratory

1:46 2/5
Lakeway

1:46 3/5
Festin
Strike the Gold
Limehouse
Subordination
Wekiva Springs
Devil His Due

1:46 4/5
Saratoga Dew
River Keen
Holy Bull
Forever Silver

When looked at this way, each of these races probably stood out as very fast on their particular cards. But when looked at in line with what stakes horses regularly do there at that distance, it gives u a better sense of where a race actually fits.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I don't think that really has much to do with making speed figures. However, it just seems pretty close to impossible that the Forego was that fast, a 125 now actually in Simulcast Daily. The figure maker used the same variant he did for the other sprints, but they were run much earlier in the day and surely something was done with the track.

As an aside, I'd like to thank NYRA once again for keeping their nearly unblemished record of running no other route races on the day of a big race.

this is something I also finding puzzling. In my mind it should be almost mandatory on a big day. I'd like to see at least two other dirt routes on the same day as a big race.