Breeders' Cup Going for Grade 1's Again

[blackthroatedwind]

The Brooklyn has been a grade 2 for years.

I don't agree about the Carter at all and think you need to look at the fields overall again. One or two mediocre runnings doesn't downgrade a race of that kind of status and longevity.

[fpsoxfan]

Can anyone hear explain why they want to continue adding BC races? Why does everything in our country have to be ruined by this "you know we have a great product here, but if we make it bigger it will be better."

I've been betting the Breeder's Cup since 1989 and have had a blast doing it.
Whether you choose to attend it, go someplace to watch it, or just enjoy the comfort of your own chair or couch, it's the best day in horse racing.
I was able to stomach the extra day this year, but to add more races on top of this is just simply moronic.

This "supersize me" culture we live in with Super Bowl Sunday pre-games that start 12 hours before the game and World Series that you have to stay up half the night to watch is just sports in general. Now it looks like the BC wants to tinker with what seems to have worked well since it's inception.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Off the top of my head, a few that deserve to be looked at might include
-Carter
-Gulf PArk Breeders
-Del Mar Fut
-Del Mar Deb
-Brooklyn
-Hollywood Derby
-Oak Leaf

I'm tempted toss in the Cigar on the basis of Naughty New Yorker earning a G1 placing being just cause.

I'm not saying I personally would bump then down; I just can't see how they rationalize the need for a greater number of Grade 1 races.

The Gulfstream Park Breeders should definitely be the first one downgraded.

I don't agree with the others aside from the Brooklyn which is already G2.

The only reason to downgrade the Del Mar 2yo races is cause they are now irrelevant with the poly playing so different from the cushion.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Furthermore, if you actually looked over the names of Prioress winners in the last 20 years you would see a host of Grade 1 horses winning ( and also hitting the board ). If you want to say the entire ratings system is screwed up I can understand but this race has many Grade 1 quality winners by today's standards.

Here's a few names for you......Carson Hollow, Xtra Heat, Marley Vale ( second ), Hurricane Bertie, Capote Belle, Heavenly Prize ( second ), Classy Mirage and Safely Kept.

I agree that several of these were very talented fillies, although most of them were relatively unaccomplished at the time that they ran in the Prioress. My problem with the grades assigned is that too much emphasis is often given to the winner without looking at the overall quality of the field. (This goes against the point I just made, but since 2000, the Prioress winners have included the rather undistinguished I'm Brassy, House Party, Friendly Michelle, Acey Deucey and Wildcat Bettie B.) In many cases, even the years when there were first-class winners of the race, the field was not much more than a glorified NW2X allowance, as opposed to the Test which is like a "summit-meeting" of top 3YO fillies and which connections have long pointed their fillies.


Without regard to history our marketing by the tracks, here are a few grade Is that have fallen on hard times in recent years and should have their status reconsidered, IMO:

Alcibiades (maiden winners the past two years), Ancient Title (short fields on a BC prep weekend when many top sprinters use the Vosburgh or go in fresh), Clement Hirsch Turf (just not a strong race, perhaps due to its 10F distance with BC in a few weeks), DeFrancis Dash (post-BC impact), Gazelle (always a short field and just a few weeks after the Alabama), Gulfstream Park BC Turf (a grade I turf race on the East Coast so early in the season is questionable, at best), Lady's Secret, Sword Dancer (diluted by competition with Arlington Million), and Vanity. There are also a number of those older filly and mare races on the West Coast whose names I often confuse whose grading are undeserved.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

The Brooklyn has been a grade 2 for years.

I don't agree about the Carter at all and think you need to look at the fields overall again. One or two mediocre runnings doesn't downgrade a race of that kind of status and longevity.

Oops on the Brooklyn. Fair enough on the Carter (Bishop Court Hill winning was one thing; winning at 3-1 is another). By the same token and logic, just tossing a million bucks out and calling a race a Breeders Cup "championship" does not merit immediate or accelerated G 1 status.

I readily admit I am well beyond logic and reason when it comes to the BC and proliferation of diluted G 1 races.

[blackthroatedwind]

Then I guess there should be no 2YO Grade 1 races anymore ( save perhaps the BC ) as there are few early NW1X races anymore for 2YOs and most of these races are won by maiden breakers.

But, that's just more fuel for the " there are too many Grade 1s " argument.

I could argue both sides on the Prioress. I guess the bottom line is that it's the only Grade 1 at 6F restricted to 3YO fillies and the division probably deserves at least one race.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by SentToStud

Oops on the Brooklyn. Fair enough on the Carter (Bishop Court Hill winning was one thing; winning at 3-1 is another). By the same token and logic, just tossing a million bucks out and calling a race a Breeders Cup "championship" does not merit immediate or accelerated G 1 status.

I readily admit I am well beyond logic and reason when it comes to the BC and proliferation of diluted G 1 races.

Based on the Bishop Court Hill running it should be moved to the Claiming Crown.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Then I guess there should be no 2YO Grade 1 races anymore ( save perhaps the BC ) as there are few early NW1X races anymore for 2YOs and most of these races are won by maiden breakers.

I'm not necessarily saying that. I have no problem with races like the Hopeful, Del Mar Futurity and Champagne having grade I status. Whether populated by maiden-breakers or not, these races typically draw the "best" maiden-breakers of the lot (i.e., Maimonides and Majestic Warrior this year, and horses like Sky Mesa in the past) and are often "championship-type" races, while the "second-tier" maiden breakers often go elsewhere for a softer spot (Sapling, Futurity). I think there is a big difference between the analysis needed for a 2YO stakes race and that for a mid-summer race for
3YOs, of either gender.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

I'm not necessarily saying that. I have no problem with races like the Hopeful, Del Mar Futurity and Champagne having grade I status. Whether populated by maiden-breakers or not, these races typically draw the "best" maiden-breakers of the lot (i.e., Maimonides and Majestic Warrior this year, and horses like Sky Mesa in the past) and are often "championship-type" races, while the "second-tier" maiden breakers often go elsewhere for a softer spot (Sapling, Futurity). I think there is a big difference between the analysis needed for a 2YO stakes race and that for a mid-summer race for
3YOs, of either gender.

I know you weren't saying that....sorry. I was just more trying to point out that stakes have replaced allowance races in many divisions.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Furthermore, if you actually looked over the names of Prioress winners in the last 20 years you would see a host of Grade 1 horses winning ( and also hitting the board ). If you want to say the entire ratings system is screwed up I can understand but this race has many Grade 1 quality winners by today's standards.

Here's a few names for you......Carson Hollow, Xtra Heat, Marley Vale ( second ), Hurricane Bertie, Capote Belle, Heavenly Prize ( second ), Classy Mirage and Safely Kept.

How many of those names won in recent years? Yeah, Safely Kept was a monster but that was what, 1989 or 1990? The bottom line is this race has been putrid in recent years and if it was run in any other state besides NY or California, it would be a Grade 3.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

How many of those names won in recent years? Yeah, Safely Kept was a monster but that was what, 1989 or 1990? The bottom line is this race has been putrid in recent years and if it was run in any other state besides NY or California, it would be a Grade 3.

I don't agree with you and the results don't back up your " putrid " comments. But, to each his own.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Fair enough. I cant say that I agree with you on this but I do get where you are coming from. Though I thought the 6th man analogy was accurate as if he was as talented he would be starting.

I just think that because turf and dirt are so distinctly different that to say a top turf sprinter is not talented enough to compete on dirt is like saying that a horse like GW is not talented enough to compete on the dirt. It wasn't that GW wasnt talented enough, it was he wasn't a dirt horse. There are a thousand Danehill stakes winners and not one of them is on the dirt. It would be hard to fathom that there isn't a horse by Danehill or another top turf sire that would not be a legit turf sprinter. The only reason that there isnt a tradition of top class turf sprinters in this country is that the tracks simply did not write the races. I believe that if you write enough quality stakes you will get a competitive division with talented horses. I have passed on horses at Tattersalles simply because there were no shorter races for them over here and I did not want to be screwed if they did not stretch out. The fact is that the dirt sprint division is been so weak in recent years that you might see some crossover from the turf sprint stakes to the dirt sprint.

So then you think Michael Finley is more talented and important to the Spurs than Manu Ginobili is? There are other examples of players that come off of the bench and are more talented than starters but the best fit for the team is to have them coming off of the bench to maybe be that anchor for the second unit or to give their team a bigger advantage over the other teams bench. Chicago did much better when Ben Gordon was a sixth man instead of a starter. Remember Rickey Pierce in Milwaukee? I believe he made the all-star team coming off of the bench, as Ginobili probably will this season.

[King Glorious]

My personal opinion is that no race that is universally agreed is a prep for another race should be on equal standing, grade wise, as the main event. I personally don't feel that any of the main Kentucky Derby preps (SA Derby, FL Derby, AR Derby, Blue Grass, Wood) should be grade ones. I think they should be dropped to grade two and the preps for those races should be grade three and so on down the line.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

That is poor breeding if anyone is that unblessed. People do everything possible to not breed a horse to be a turf sprinter.

People might do everything possible not to breed a horse to be a turf sprinter in North America.

But if the Breeders' Cup is going to truly evolve into a "World Championship of Racing" as they bill theirselves, a big race for turf sprinters only makes sense.

A turf sprinting mare just won HOTY in Australia. You think they were disappointed she couldn't go long?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by JJP

Did Wild Gams have a 100 Beyer going into the Prioress? I'd be surpised if she did.

She ran a monster race in the Cicada....

Than was laid off 2.5 months and responded with a 33 Beyer in some small stake Belmont Stakes weekend...when I singled her in some multi-win exotics.

She was 2nd in the Prioress at 19/1 one month later.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Take a look at the pps of the horses that competed in the Turf Express at Hollywood on Saturday.

After doing so I am guessing you will agree with me.

Bad example, the G1 Citation sucked too. The mid Atlantic has some awesome grass sprinters. That said, I dont think the new races should be G1.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Linny

Bad example, the G1 Citation sucked too. The mid Atlantic has some awesome grass sprinters. That said, I dont think the new races should be G1.

Huh?

If you take a look at the lifetime past performances of the field for the Hollywood Turf Express you will see that those horses ended up in turf sprints because they were unsuccessful either on the dirt going short or on the turf going longer.

You missed my point completely.......and then chastised me. Much appreciated.

[blackthroatedwind]

And, by the way, the Mid-Atlantic has a lot of " awesome " performances....that don't get duplicated in NY.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

There are nine graded stakes for turf sprinters (all of which Grade 3's) - and honestly, isn't that nine races too many?

A Breeders Cup Turf Sprint...or anything that legitimizes turf sprints for horses age three and up is a bad idea.

I'd be in favor of a Breeders Cup Starter Allowance race - restricted to horses who raced for a tag of 25K or less during that racing season - before I would be a turf sprint.

A middle distance starter allowance race would feature a massively oversubscribed field of horses with forms dominated by winning performances at a VERY WIDE variety of race-tracks and distances....probably trained by a bunch of move-up artists and undesireables.

The real bright spot of that kind of race would be the fact that it would not siphon out contenders from other BC races. I'd rather see cheaper horses in razor sharp form get to run for a $1 million purse - than have the possibility of the fields for the existing Breeders Cup races being further watered down

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

So then you think Michael Finley is more talented and important to the Spurs than Manu Ginobili is? There are other examples of players that come off of the bench and are more talented than starters but the best fit for the team is to have them coming off of the bench to maybe be that anchor for the second unit or to give their team a bigger advantage over the other teams bench. Chicago did much better when Ben Gordon was a sixth man instead of a starter. Remember Rickey Pierce in Milwaukee? I believe he made the all-star team coming off of the bench, as Ginobili probably will this season.

It was an analogy Hubie Brown. You come up with a better one.