Religious Fanatics and War

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by irishtrekker

DTS, I have to respectfully disagree with some of what you've said, only because I was almost one of those Marines myself! The kids from my class ('99) signed up when our state was going through some economic problems. I'm from a farm town, and not a lot of people go to college after high school. Most come from military families, and that's where the kids go, too.

None of us had any idea in 1999 that we were going to go to war, but the sign-up contract is for six years with most branches of the service. I had good friends who never thought they'd actually fight wind up serving in both Afghanistan and Iraq. They are really psychologically messed up now, and I'm still counting my blessings for deciding to listen to my parents for once.

You're right that deep down, they should maybe have thought there might actually be a war some day...but we grew up at the end of the Cold War. To us, there were no bad guys left, naive as that may sound. Plus, when you're 18, a lot of things make sense that seem really stupid when a few more years have passed. I despise this war and have from the very beginning, but I have sympathy for soldiers who are stuck, and particularly for the kids who have families to support and can't just disobey orders and drop out. I also have tons of respect for people who don't enlist. I respect the soldiers who believe in what they're doing, because whether or not I agree with them, it's their lives on the line. Everyone makes their choices. But there are so many people I know who would give it all to take back that moment when they signed on the contract.

Just my two cents. Hope you don't mind.

Irish,
Thanks for explaining where your thoughts come from.
Mine come from a family that has served, going back to my Great grandfathers in Civil war, my grandfather in WWI, my Dad in WWII.
All were officers.
Then, during Viet Nam, I took a stand. I had many arguements with quite a few people, including my father, and several friends that thought it was completely worthwhile. Obviously, we all know how that turned out.
Three of them came back in flag draped coffins for "proper burial".
What a waste! They never got the chance to have wives, children.
These were kids that grew up in "middle class" families, hoped to go to college on the GI bill when they got out...believed everything the recruiter threw at them. My friend, John, got himself ambushed in Laos trying to rescue parts from a blown up jeep. He lived. But he's never been the same since. Now he lives like a hermit on a mountainside, doesn't talk to very many. He once thought he was going to be an aireonautical (sp) engineer, and even went to Cal...St Luis Obismo to pursue that dream. No way...
his mental state couldn't handle it.

Excuse my rant, but I've seen far too many people destroyed by war, and their willingness to participate in it. Not much good comes out of it.
That's the truth.
Bad things happen when people believe in lies.
DTS

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Irish,
Thanks for explaining where your thoughts come from.
Mine come from a family that has served, going back to my Great grandfathers in Civil war, my grandfather in WWI, my Dad in WWII.
All were officers.
Then, during Viet Nam, I took a stand. I had many arguements with quite a few people, including my father, and several friends that thought it was completely worthwhile. Obviously, we all know how that turned out.
Three of them came back in flag draped coffins for "proper burial".
What a waste! They never got the chance to have wives, children.
These were kids that grew up in "middle class" families, hoped to go to college on the GI bill when they got out...believed everything the recruiter threw at them. My friend, John, got himself ambushed in Laos trying to rescue parts from a blown up jeep. He lived. But he's never been the same since. Now he lives like a hermit on a mountainside, doesn't talk to very many. He once thought he was going to be an aireonautical (sp) engineer, and even went to Cal...St Luis Obismo to pursue that dream. No way...
his mental state couldn't handle it.

Excuse my rant, but I've seen far too many people destroyed by war, and their willingness to participate in it. Not much good comes out of it.
That's the truth.
Bad things happen when people believe in lies.
DTS

Soldiers aren't believing in lies. They are just doing their job. Most would rather not be fighting, and signed up thinking there would never be a war, but they made a commitment and they honor it.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Soldiers aren't believing in lies. They are just doing their job. Most would rather not be fighting, and signed up thinking there would never be a war, but they made a commitment and they honor it.

Tell that to a widow in Falluja, or a mother in Beirut whose children (two sons) have died.
Yup, they're doing their job. Yup, they made a commitment.
I fail to see the "honor".
Lies are just that...LIES.
To continue to believe that somehow they'll come true (click your heels together three times Dorothy and turn around) will not make the truth happen.
Only when the curtain was torn back so that the "wizard" could be seen for the Oz he created exposed the reality.

I'll repeat, there is no honor in lies. No truth in deception. No security in creating fear.

The truth will stand on its own.

I'm sick of those that make up excuses for attempting to "spin" it otherwise.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Tell that to a widow in Falluja, or a mother in Beirut whose children (two sons) have died.
Yup, they're doing their job. Yup, they made a commitment.
I fail to see the "honor".
Lies are just that...LIES.
To continue to believe that somehow they'll come true (click your heels together three times Dorothy and turn around) will not make the truth happen.
Only when the curtain was torn back so that the "wizard" could be seen for the Oz he created exposed the reality.

I'll repeat, there is no honor in lies. No truth in deception. No security in creating fear.

The truth will stand on its own.

I'm sick of those that make up excuses for attempting to "spin" it otherwise.

You need to stop reading all that commondreams crap. How about joining us in the real world not your "dream" world. The US should never have gone to Iraq, but you seem to forget about the Kurds and Shiite that were slaughtered by the thousands by Sadaam. You love to forget those things. How about the million that were killed in Rwanda while our military sat handcuffed because Clinton couldn't send them in to help because of his fear of looking like a "wag the dog" president. The US military does 100x more good than it does bad. Where were you when people hit by the Tsunami? Sitting on your couch while they were saving people's lives. How about Katrina, they were fixing another Bush mistake, saving lives and helping the people. So all those people who you claimed only signed up because they couldn't find a job in the booming economy seemed to have done more to help people than you probably ever will do.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

You need to stop reading all that commondreams crap. How about joining us in the real world not your "dream" world. The US should never have gone to Iraq, but you seem to forget about the Kurds and Shiite that were slaughtered by the thousands by Sadaam. You love to forget those things. How about the million that were killed in Rwanda while our military sat handcuffed because Clinton couldn't send them in to help because of his fear of looking like a "wag the dog" president. The US military does 100x more good than it does bad. Where were you when people hit by the Tsunami? Sitting on your couch while they were saving people's lives. How about Katrina, they were fixing another Bush mistake, saving lives and helping the people. So all those people who you claimed only signed up because they couldn't find a job in the booming economy seemed to have done more to help people than you probably ever will do.

Bold Ruler,
Thank you so much for your judgements of me.
Reread everything I said.
Did I ever mention Rwanda? Katrina? Clinton?
You seem intent on diverting attention from the words I have spoken, and also grasping for Wilson, FDR, Truman...
Geesh! Please get beyond your distortions, accusations, and personal attacks.
Those are more LIES!!!!
Very obvious for those that know anything about debating and "staying on topic".
Are you blaming me for creating a tsunami? A hurricane?
"Good job, Brownie" are the words I heard.

The kids that joined the military because they couldn't afford a college education without the benefits of the GI bill, or because they didn't have sufficient grades to get into their local community college are the ones you feel so sorry for as they sweat under the heavy gear in 110 heat in Iraq.
I didn't create the economy where they were unable to find meaningful jobs.
How come the military is now taking 42 year olds? If the military is so popular, explain why the standards for admission keep being reduced.

Give me a break, Judgemeister.
Each time you post something, you sound like a bigger and bigger idiot.
You are trying to sound like God.
Sorry to tell you, Bold Ruler, YOU'RE NOT! Never will be!

If you have no knowledge of current events, there really is no point in further discussion.
Your arguements are lame.

I'll leave you with a quote that I previously posted.
"He that argues with a fool also demonstrates that he is one".

Done with you Bold God Ruler.

[Danzig]

my son joined the military when he could have easily gone to college or gotten a job. it's what he wanted to do. just like my brother is a fireman because he wanted to be one. my dad was a policeman. my husband and i were both in, because we wanted it. didn't buy any lies, i didn't worry about the gi bill, neither did my husband.
people sometimes tend to try to simplify things, or label things. why people go into the military for instance. just because it doesn't appeal to some, doesn't mean it wouldn't appeal to anyone.
my son is very smart, had enough intelligence to qualify for nuke training to work on the plants on aircraft carriers. he's no dummy, nor is he naive.

Originally Posted by Danzig188

my son joined the military when he could have easily gone to college or gotten a job. it's what he wanted to do. just like my brother is a fireman because he wanted to be one. my dad was a policeman. my husband and i were both in, because we wanted it. didn't buy any lies, i didn't worry about the gi bill, neither did my husband.
people sometimes tend to try to simplify things, or label things. why people go into the military for instance. just because it doesn't appeal to some, doesn't mean it wouldn't appeal to anyone.
my son is very smart, had enough intelligence to qualify for nuke training to work on the plants on aircraft carriers. he's no dummy, nor is he naive.

DTS is one of those very good people that has good intentions but he has this perception of the military that is way out there. Many people in the Democratic Party think this same way and they are killing the party with their anti-military nonsense. You are the second person on this thread, and I will be the third, that know many people in the military that chose it because they wanted to. Not everyone in the military is a right wing republican and not everyone is a democrat either. It leans slightly to the right primarily because there are so many leftwing lunatics out there that live in a fantasy world that think anyone in the military is a baby killer. These are the same pathetic people that spit on soldiers when they returned from Vietnam (I am not saying DTS is one of those, before he jumps down my throat).

Last I checked a guy named Pat Tillman gave up millions of an NFL salary because he felt it was his duty to go serve in the military. The idiots in the Bush White House exploited his death and lied, but that should surprise nobody. The point is there is a big difference between phony draft dodger types like George W and Bill Clinton, and people that really feel a call to serve their country.

[GenuineRisk]

DTS and BR, I'm hopping in just because I like you both and I hate seeing you squabble-- especially since I think you both agree on the biggest point, which is that GW Bush is a horrible man and the Iraq war should never have been started.

I don't think we can really presume to know the reasons every person who joins the military joins it-- though I do know the lower and middle-class have not benefited from the booming economy-- this particular boom, thanks to GW and the Republican Congress's policies, has benefited only the rich. Some of the people there didn't join the military; they joined the National Guard and I think they really got bait-and-switched. But so what they do now? If they go AWOL they get jailed (and how does one manage to go AWOL when one is already in Iraq?). And I think people want to believe that their work means something, no matter what their work may be. Can you imagine what must be going on in the minds of the soldiers there who think all this is for nothing? I do think the military is a perfectly honorable profession-- and it has been hijacked by the Bush cabal into a perfectly dishonorable war.

BR, in all fairness, I don't think the Democratic Party's propensity to attract "lunatics" is why the military leans right. I think it leans right because the Democrats lost the appearance of capability in defense in the wake of Vietnam and the Republicans have been exceptionally good in the last 20 years at framing the arguments to their advantage in an assortment of areas, defense not the least among them. The fact that Rush Limbaugh gets broadcast to the military and Air America does not doesn't help, either (or so I read-- is that true? Do my tax dollars go to sending Limbaugh's show to our boys and girls in uniform? Oh, the humanity! The humanity! Seriously though, that really pisses me off...).

But DTS, that doesn't make the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis any less awful-- I think everyone agrees with you on that! You clearly were affected by Vietnam, as was every young man of your generation, I think (with the possible exception of GW). My stepmom is Cambodian by birth, and survived four years in a labor camp during Pol Pot's regime-- she has some interesting thoughts on America's handling of Vietnam, though she also passionately loves the country that took her in after she fled her homeland in the dead of night. But I still see Cambodia in her eyes.

I can't fathom how men could be so arrogant and hubristic as to do what this Administration did with Iraq-- used a horrific tragedy on our soil as an opportunity to dupe the public into supporting a badly planned, badly funded attack on a nation that had nothing to do with that tragedy, because they needed an excuse to go in there. And I wonder, do the souls of the soldiers dead there and the civilians killed ever haunt them? And I think not-- but they haunt me. But I can't hold the men and women who are the boots on the ground responsible. The ones who participated in Abu Girab (spelling?)- sure. The ones who raped the Iraqi child-- sure. But not the average soldier who is just trying to do his or her job. For them, I pray for a safe return home and for some sort of peace in the wake of the horrors they've seen.

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I can't fathom how men could be so arrogant and hubristic as to do what this Administration did with Iraq-- used a horrific tragedy on our soil as an opportunity to dupe the public into supporting a badly planned, badly funded attack on a nation that had nothing to do with that tragedy, because they needed an excuse to go in there.

What about Afghanistan?

[irishtrekker]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Irish,
Thanks for explaining where your thoughts come from.
Mine come from a family that has served, going back to my Great grandfathers in Civil war, my grandfather in WWI, my Dad in WWII.
All were officers.
Then, during Viet Nam, I took a stand. I had many arguements with quite a few people, including my father, and several friends that thought it was completely worthwhile. Obviously, we all know how that turned out.
Three of them came back in flag draped coffins for "proper burial".
What a waste! They never got the chance to have wives, children.
These were kids that grew up in "middle class" families, hoped to go to college on the GI bill when they got out...believed everything the recruiter threw at them. My friend, John, got himself ambushed in Laos trying to rescue parts from a blown up jeep. He lived. But he's never been the same since. Now he lives like a hermit on a mountainside, doesn't talk to very many. He once thought he was going to be an aireonautical (sp) engineer, and even went to Cal...St Luis Obismo to pursue that dream. No way...
his mental state couldn't handle it.

Excuse my rant, but I've seen far too many people destroyed by war, and their willingness to participate in it. Not much good comes out of it.
That's the truth.
Bad things happen when people believe in lies.
DTS

I don't disagree with you at all. It makes it worse for me knowing I have friends stuck in this who never wanted to be. Thanks for your thoughts. I'm sorry about John; I'm afraid one of the guys I know will be the same in a decade or two.

[Downthestretch55]

Irish,
I'm sorry about your friend.
Actually, I'm saddened by all the victims of war. There are far too many.
I wish no disrepect for those that chose to serve our country, and I hope they return safely.
I hope Danzig's son is safe and returns whole. Danzig explained his good motives.
I read that, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Unfortunately, my experience has been somewhat clouded. My dad had two purple hearts. He suffered from the wounds for the rest of his life. That doesn't include waking up in the middle of the night to deal with the after effects of malaria.
My brother served also. I didn't mention his involvement.
Lets just say, he participated for "noble reasons", as do many others.
He has "mental scars".

I'm very happy that "agent orange", something that claimed a few of my friends later, (horrible deaths and two birth defects later), is not currently used. It does trouble me that when the full effects of using depleted uranium's are evidenced in future years, the tragedies will continue.

Irish, please do all you can to inform those that see the "glory" of it all to realize what I've said above. "Nothing good comes from war."
And when they tell you how "necessary" it is...it means they've not seen the real consequences.
There are ways to deal with people that disagree with you besides attacking,
hating, and killing. Talking is a good place to begin.

Peace!

[irishtrekker]

"Talking is a good place to begin." -- Amen to that!

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by irishtrekker

"Talking is a good place to begin." -- Amen to that!

When two say the same prayer, it is heard.

AMEN!! (so be it)

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by pgardn

OH DTS you hit a spot.
This is... how shall I put it.

He has a huge Israeli flag in his Gym. He gives money to the JCC here and they wont take it. He is very wealthy. His temple of Worship is one of the largest gaudiest things I have ever seen. I will give you a personal message about what type of guy I think he is.

Holy Cow did you hit a spot. Not only does he live in Texas. He lives in THE RICHEST area of San Antonio. David Robinson, a famous country singer named George Strait, etc.. also live in the same subdivision. The pulpit has been very kind to him. God has shed his riches with Hagee.

Pgardn,
I didn't forget what you said about Hagee.
I saw him on the tube today, "explaining" his end times schtick.
Seems like more than a few have been sucked into his nonsense.
Anyway, I had to do some searching but I came up with this one. It's a bit long but it seems informative.
Take some time to read it if you have the opportunity.
False prophet...

http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by pgardn

What about Afghanistan?

The handling of it or the invading in the first place? The handling of it has been as bad as everything else this corrupt Administration does. I wasn't opposed to the invading of it-- Osama bin Laden was behind 9/11 and he was in Afghanistan. Plus I hate the Taliban's treatment of women. But I was ready to see us go in September 12th and instead Bush and Co. waited what, 2 months? And I firmly believe they waited because they wanted to try to link Saddam to 9/11 and just go into Iraq instead. And they couldn't and finally had to trot into Afghanistan and come up with some other excuse to go into Iraq.

What do you think about the handling of Afghanistan?

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

The handling of it or the invading in the first place? The handling of it has been as bad as everything else this corrupt Administration does. I wasn't opposed to the invading of it-- Osama bin Laden was behind 9/11 and he was in Afghanistan. Plus I hate the Taliban's treatment of women. But I was ready to see us go in September 12th and instead Bush and Co. waited what, 2 months? And I firmly believe they waited because they wanted to try to link Saddam to 9/11 and just go into Iraq instead. And they couldn't and finally had to trot into Afghanistan and come up with some other excuse to go into Iraq.

What do you think about the handling of Afghanistan?

I am of the opinion you go in to win. All the way. Nothing half-as s ed. This was also half ... But when you go in all the way there are political ramifications because inevitably innocent people will die in large numbers. Damned if you do, damned if you dont, so we go in half as..... and get stuck in the muck.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Pgardn,
I didn't forget what you said about Hagee.
I saw him on the tube today, "explaining" his end times schtick.
Seems like more than a few have been sucked into his nonsense.
Anyway, I had to do some searching but I came up with this one. It's a bit long but it seems informative.
Take some time to read it if you have the opportunity.
False prophet...

http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm

He is very well known in this city for his totally outlandish thoughts.
I will tell you what he basically does. He makes a living by making some very rich folks feel less guilty about their excessive wealth. Jesus has given them wealth because he sees the good in them... and on and on.

The rich having as much chance as going to heaven as a camel thru the eye of a needle stuff blah blah blah has these people petrified. The end of the world crap book is making the man millions also. He knows how to make money.
I will tell you this though. He is gifted. This is another guy who has his brain directly connected to his mouth. He has an incredibly good vocabulary and is an extraordinary speaker. They guy writes almost nothing down and starts with a basic idea, expands upon it, then brings it to a tumultuous ending. It is indeed quite amazing. Some of these preachers just meander thru a sermon with no real direction sweatin and spittin, hanky out drenched, run into a corner, give me an AMEN.
Hagee is an artist. As a speaker he is on the level of Clinton or Blair. About as good as I have seen and heard. He can flat out manipulate a crowd that does not listen carefully. The substance is pure hogwash.

[kentuckyrosesinmay]

Originally Posted by Danzig188

my son joined the military when he could have easily gone to college or gotten a job. it's what he wanted to do. just like my brother is a fireman because he wanted to be one. my dad was a policeman. my husband and i were both in, because we wanted it. didn't buy any lies, i didn't worry about the gi bill, neither did my husband.
people sometimes tend to try to simplify things, or label things. why people go into the military for instance. just because it doesn't appeal to some, doesn't mean it wouldn't appeal to anyone.
my son is very smart, had enough intelligence to qualify for nuke training to work on the plants on aircraft carriers. he's no dummy, nor is he naive.

My dad was a policeman too, and so is my uncle. My sister graduated in the top 10% of her class, and leaves for the Navy in September. She did not need the GI bill either nor is she a dummy. She is also very smart, and could have easily been a doctor or a veterinarian. Instead, she chose this path by when she had all the options in the world.