Pletchers Demise

While I can't knock his success rate, I have a hard time canonized Todd Pletcher.

I mean, do you really buy his explanation/excuse over three of his runners DYING in a brief period shortly after far improved lifetime best off-the-chart #s? That "patch of grass" explanation took a lot of balls, but when you have Pletcher's high-powered and high-profile list of owners(who also pretty much control the racing organizations), I guess you can get by with pretty much anything.

Remember--Pletcher still has a very weakly appealed drug suspension currently over his head. I'm sure he will serve it from Dec.-Feb., when the racing world is in it's annual lull.

No defense for Asmussen, who will be publicly executed in print(Sunday), but why him alone, while Pletcher,Frankel and Dutrow run free?

The fact that Dutrow and Pletcher ran 1-2 in the BC Classic last year should tell you all you need to know about what a trainer must do to get to the top of the heap.

JMO

This thread is ridiculous to say the least. Any thread entitled Pletcher's demise when he has won over 17 million so far this year, and is over ten million ahead of the next guy is comical.

Originally Posted by jackofhearts

While I can't knock his success rate, I have a hard time canonized Todd Pletcher.

I mean, do you really buy his explanation/excuse over three of his runners DYING in a brief period shortly after far improved lifetime best off-the-chart #s? That "patch of grass" explanation took a lot of balls, but when you have Pletcher's high-powered and high-profile list of owners(who also pretty much control the racing organizations), I guess you can get by with pretty much anything.

Remember--Pletcher still has a very weakly appealed drug suspension currently over his head. I'm sure he will serve it from Dec.-Feb., when the racing world is in it's annual lull.

No defense for Asmussen, who will be publicly executed in print(Sunday), but why him alone, while Pletcher,Frankel and Dutrow run free?

The fact that Dutrow and Pletcher ran 1-2 in the BC Classic last year should tell you all you need to know about what a trainer must do to get to the top of the heap.

JMO

Asmussen is going to be publicy executed in print? Wow. Funny thing is that the beat goes on for his stable in his absence. Blasi won the the feature race at the Spa yesterday and has had a very good meet up here.

Originally Posted by oracle80

This thread is ridiculous to say the least. Any thread entitled Pletcher's demise when he has won over 17 million so far this year, and is over ten million ahead of the next guy is comical.

The thread isnt intended to find fault with Pletcher. It was basically to talk about what may cause he decline among the trainer standings. It happens to all trainers. It wont happen for perhaps 30 years but it will happen. I think the consensus is burn out.

Originally Posted by oracle80

Asmussen is going to be publicy executed in print? Wow. Funny thing is that the beat goes on for his stable in his absence. Blasi won the the feature race at the Spa yesterday and has had a very good meet up here.

If you took time to watch the race, you would notice CHACE CITY took it to this field from pillar to post. He was clearly the best horse, and has been in all of his races.

As for Asmussen, we will see.
Tell me, Oracle80--what caused those Pletcher runners to die in such a short time period, just after all of them upped their highest speed #s by double digits? I don't believe there ever was a real explanation.
Coincidence or bad luck, I'm sure.

Wasn't all of this about the same time LEFT BANK turned from a nice sprinter to a top handicap distance runner?

What ever happened to LEFT BANK?

[quote=jackofhearts]If you took time to watch the race, you would notice CHACE CITY took it to this field from pillar to post. He was clearly the best horse, and has been in all of his races.

As for Asmussen, we will see.
Tell me, Oracle80--what caused those Pletcher runners to die in such a short time period, just after all of them upped their highest speed #s by double digits? I don't believe there ever was a real explanation.
Coincidence or bad luck, I'm sure.

Tell me Jackofhearts, of what first hand info do you have about the circumstnaces surrounding these deaths? Do you have the full scoop and story? Or are you just another piece if trash on the internet who knows everything there is to know.

Tell me Jackofhearts, of what first hand info do you have about the circumstnaces surrounding these deaths? Do you have the full scoop and story? Or are you just another piece if trash on the internet who knows everything there is to know.[/quote]
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I have no first hand knowledge about these mysterious deaths. As far as I can tell, THERE IS NO FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE or credible explanation for these quick deaths that ALL occured in ONE barn, just after ALL 3 runners had accomplished amazing improvements in form. Pletcher's theory was of a "patch of grass" where these horses might have all grazed, but there never was any substantiation that such "patch of grass" existed. Since things like this are unfashionable and just can't happen at Saratoga, plus the high profile trainer and owners involved, the incident was glossed over. Can you imagine today if these were Asmussen runners?

So--when do you think Mr.Pletcher will serve his suspension?
The evidence supporting the finding has been determined to be factual, while the appeal is only based on sketchy hypotheticals.

And no, sir(?), I don't consider myself an internet "piece of trash" for raising these issues, and take offense at your insulting comments. I have been around this business/game since the early 70's as a gambler, owner, breeder and seller. I have owned graded stakes runners, and bought/sold at Barrett's 2yo and the Keeneland sales.

Are you a typical turf writer, syndicator or horse peddler who's motto is to treat the fan and owner like mushrooms, keeping them in the dark and feeding them "fertilizer"?

Maybe YOU can explain the old Saratoga Pletcher mass murder, or link me to the official NYRA vet determination?

I dont know the story of these horses dying. Can someone share the story with me.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Me too, what is the story on this?

Is it the same stuff that happened to Baffert last year when I believe a poster on the other board described it as "they were dragging another one out of its stall in Baffert's barn this morning (Diamond Omi)?"

[2MinsToPost]

I as well would love to read more about this situation. Links would be great if anyone has em' handy.

[Pointg5]

Happened about 3-4 years ago, three of his horses died after big efforts within a couple of days of each other, all from some unknown reason. I believe Left Bank died of Colic. Left Bank had just won the Whitney. I believe the other two were fillies, one had just one a Stakes Race. Seems alot of people are curious about their deaths, because they just ran huge efforts and Pletcher is considered to be a "high percentage" or "move up trainer". I don't know for sure if there was something given to them, to encourage those "move up" performances, so I have no opinion on that, but I sure wouldn't go running someone's name through the mud, without proof.

Originally Posted by Pointg5

Happened about 3-4 years ago, three of his horses died after big efforts within a couple of days of each other, all from some unknown reason. I believe Left Bank died of Colic. Left Bank had just won the Whitney. I believe the other two were fillies, one had just one a Stakes Race. Seems alot of people are curious about their deaths, because they just ran huge efforts and Pletcher is considered to be a "high percentage" or "move up trainer". I don't know for sure if there was something given to them, to encourage those "move up" performances, so I have no opinion on that, but I sure wouldn't go running someone's name through the mud, without proof.

Thanks Point. I remember Left Bank and I actually liked that horse. Forgot about him until now. Wasnt he owned by Tabor and Smith?

[Pointg5]

Originally Posted by eurobounce

Thanks Point. I remember Left Bank and I actually liked that horse. Forgot about him until now. Wasnt he owned by Tabor and Smith?

Yes, he was owned by Tabor. He was a good sprinter and then won the Whitney in impressive fashion...

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by jackofhearts

If you took time to watch the race, you would notice CHACE CITY took it to this field from pillar to post. He was clearly the best horse, and has been in all of his races.

As for Asmussen, we will see.
Tell me, Oracle80--what caused those Pletcher runners to die in such a short time period, just after all of them upped their highest speed #s by double digits? I don't believe there ever was a real explanation.
Coincidence or bad luck, I'm sure.

Wasn't all of this about the same time LEFT BANK turned from a nice sprinter to a top handicap distance runner?

What ever happened to LEFT BANK?

EPO is known to weaken the immune system severley so that a horse can die even from a minor illness. I don't think any thoroughbred trainers in the USA have been caught using EPO, but it is pretty obvious that guys are using it. It is very hard to test for it. They are currently developing tests to detect antibodies for it. I heard that with a brand new test that was just developed, they caught a guy in Canada and he got a $100,000 fine and a 10 year suspension.

I'm not saying that Pletcher uses erythropoietin. Some people may suspect him of using it but that doesn't prove anything.

Thank you, pointg5 and rupert, for your input.
I was up on the incident when it happened, but so much has gone on since then.

Actually, a very nice 2yo stakes filly was one of the victims, a highly regarded 3yo sprinter(who had just run out of his skin in a toga allowance race) was another, and there MIGHT have been one more. During this time, LEFT BANK emerged from being a very tough short/mid-distance sprinter type to being untouchable in graded stakes at any distance. LEFT BANK did colic, and might have had prior trouble, which became seriously aggravated.

As for EPO, I didn't mention it.
Obviously some here know about it's use and after-effects.
Many subscribe to the possibility that these runners were all given something which un-intentionally(of course--no one thought differently) led to their quick demise.

I always thought possibly Baffert was one of the first to use it, and the Pletcher situation was almost textbook.
But--nothing was proven through testing(which also leads to the possible conclusion), and no other explanation was ever given other than the ridiculous "patch of grass" theory.

Draw your own conclusion.

The fact that this Oracle fellow had to quickly turn to cheap name-calling makes me wonder what he is all about. Pretty weak rebuttal, imo.

Originally Posted by jackofhearts

Thank you, pointg5 and rupert, for your input.
I was up on the incident when it happened, but so much has gone on since then.

Actually, a very nice 2yo stakes filly was one of the victims, a highly regarded 3yo sprinter(who had just run out of his skin in a toga allowance race) was another, and there MIGHT have been one more. During this time, LEFT BANK emerged from being a very tough short/mid-distance sprinter type to being untouchable in graded stakes at any distance. LEFT BANK did colic, and might have had prior trouble, which became seriously aggravated.

As for EPO, I didn't mention it.
Obviously some here know about it's use and after-effects.
Many subscribe to the possibility that these runners were all given something which un-intentionally(of course--no one thought differently) led to their quick demise.

I always thought possibly Baffert was one of the first to use it, and the Pletcher situation was almost textbook.
But--nothing was proven through testing(which also leads to the possible conclusion), and no other explanation was ever given other than the ridiculous "patch of grass" theory.

Draw your own conclusion.

The fact that this Oracle fellow had to quickly turn to cheap name-calling makes me wonder what he is all about. Pretty weak rebuttal, imo.

Jackofhearts--you need to post more often. I actually like reasing them.

Sorry about my timing, Mr.Oracle.
I said the Asmussen article would break Sunday, but it came out last night.

Any comment, other than name-calling?

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by jackofhearts

Sorry about my timing, Mr.Oracle.
I said the Asmussen article would break Sunday, but it came out last night.

Any comment, other than name-calling?

Hadn't Left Bank suffered from colic previous to that episode? I seem to recall that the horse had serious problems previously but I could be mistaken. Regarding this incident, I recall a bit about it but hadn't heard the "patch of grass" part. I continue to maintain that the ONLY way to get past all this stuff is to require every trainer to provide racing officials with every medication every horse is given, then, any positive for any other substance would be big trouble! Hopefully someday, the technology would allow a pre-race test that would sort out any positives and require the horse to be scratched thus eliminating the incentive to cheat! There are honest mistakes...a stable hand administering the wrong med or dosage etc, and investigation would have to eliminate outside tampering but any trainer found guilty after due process should be banned for life...period!! Then, we'd see less of this! I have no opinion on Mr Pletcher or this situation as I have no real knowledge of the details!

[Five Star Derek]

I'm not blind to the fact that Horse racing has a drug problem but it seems like whenever anyone experiences success in this business the endless speculation begins. Pletcher has his choice of the best horse stock in the world year after year. His horses obviously get fed the best, trained the best and live under the best conditions. Why not give the guy his due instead of implying he's a cheater? To me, he's a great trainer. Until there's concrete evidence to suggest otherwise that's the only conclusion you can come to. Too many people subscribe to "The Magic Needle Theory" whenever a trainer has a good amount of success.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Five Star Derek

I'm not blind to the fact that Horse racing has a drug problem but it seems like whenever anyone experiences success in this business the endless speculation begins. Pletcher has his choice of the best horse stock in the world year after year. His horses obviously get fed the best, trained the best and live under the best conditions. Why not give the guy his due instead of implying he's a cheater? To me, he's a great trainer. Until there's concrete evidence to suggest otherwise that's the only conclusion you can come to. Too many people subscribe to "The Magic Needle Theory" whenever a trainer has a good amount of success.

He did get nailed for a mepivicaine positive and he's going to have to serve a 45 day suspension.

Why do people suspect that Sammy Sosa took steroids? I haven't seen any proof that Sammy Sosa took steroids. Why not give Sammy his due?

I'm not saying that Plethcer is cheating and I'm not saying that Sosa was a cheater. However, I can definitely see why people would think that they may cheat.