Vineyard Haven Sold...

[outofthebox]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

You really don't know what you are talking about with Godolphin. You really don't. They distroy good athletes. Henny was a good second in the Juvenile. To say you knew he had no chance in being formidable in the derby is plain silly. Maturity as well as athleticism play key roles in that and you can't know that. Henny goes to Dubai and you hear nothing about him until he returns ....... to another trainer! Godolphin is a program operation. They fit horses into their program. Any horse who is tough to train, etc, they do very poorly with. The Albertrani's/McLaughlins, etc have success because they know how to deal with the projects that don't fit into the program. Look it up. You really need to investigate the facts. Of course if you are voting for Obama, then the facts obviously don't matter to you.

Henny Hughes was never a Godophin, or a Darley member. Someone with a better memory than me can probably tell us what member of the sheik family owned and raced him. He was a fantastic sprinter when he came back No ill affects wnen returning to the states. Only a harendous start in the BC kept him from getting a fair chance in the sprint..

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Henny Hughes was never a Godophin, or a Darley member. Someone with a better memory than me can probably tell us what member of the sheik family owned and raced him. He was a fantastic sprinter when he came back No ill affects wnen returning to the states. Only a harendous start in the BC kept him from getting a fair chance in the sprint..

I'm almost positive he was at one point a Darley member, but I could be wrong. When he came back to the states, he was owned by Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al Maktoum. I agree with you on the bad start stopping him from winning ... that was terrible. Horse had no chance after that.

[outofthebox]

I remember seeing him win at Saratoga in yellow silks. I think he reaced for Zabeel racing stable..Im sure that has some affiliation to the Royal family of Dubai.

[pgiaco]

Zabeel is Sheikh Mo's son. Henny ran for Darley in the BC Juvenile after they purchased him from "Snake Oil" Biancone.

[outofthebox]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Henny Hughes was never a Godophin, or a Darley member. Someone with a better memory than me can probably tell us what member of the sheik family owned and raced him. He was a fantastic sprinter when he came back No ill affects wnen returning to the states. Only a harendous start in the BC kept him from getting a fair chance in the sprint..

Ok i was wrong about being a Darley runner, ran in the BC Juvenile at 2. When he did return he ran for Zabeel racing.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Maybe it's just me but I find it interesting that not a word was said when Frankel purchased this horse from someone else because he liked what he saw in the horse.

well, you have a point there.
but it seems the sheik's is a big target because he's richer than croesus, no one can compete with him, and he seems to be attempting a monopoly...

but somehow i doubt anyone would balk at being in his shoes.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by outofthebox

Henny Hughes was never a Godophin, or a Darley member. Someone with a better memory than me can probably tell us what member of the sheik family owned and raced him. He was a fantastic sprinter when he came back No ill affects wnen returning to the states. Only a harendous start in the BC kept him from getting a fair chance in the sprint..

Darley (Shiek Mo's minor league stable to Godolphin) and Zabeel which is owned by Sheik Mo's son. He did have ill effects as it took him about 7/8 months of training before he could get back racing. Which he did in early July at Monmouth. No injuries at all. He always broke a half step slow and got banged around so much he lost all chance. You can't break like that, against those guys and have a shot.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Of course if you are voting for Obama, then the facts obviously don't matter to you.

Well, that kind of idiocy really gives you credibility.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Well, that kind of idiocy really gives you credibility.

Idiocy? Does your response mean that you agree with the other two paragraphs I wrote? Or just picking off what you can to negate me. I'm not looking for credibility. But do you always have to be so negative? I was making a point. That's all.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

You had me up to the point where henny Hughes was a Derby contender and your ridiculous last sentence. Henny was a big talent, but he had distance limitations I think. Kiaran must have also. Remember his second in the Juvenile was around one turn.

You are right about his distance limits. I was only speaking about how difficult it is to predict how a 2 yr old will perform at 3. But you are right. And I don't think we need a political dialogue. I was only trying to have a little fun. MaN, you guys are a tough crowd. But if I had you that far, I am pleased. I don't put myself out there as an expret

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Handicappy

Idiocy? Does your response mean that you agree with the other two paragraphs I wrote? Or just picking off what you can to negate me. I'm not looking for credibility. But do you always have to be so negative? I was making a point. That's all.

What does someone's political views have to do with this argument?

You made the senseless comments....but I am negative.....and we are a tough crowd? How about taking a little responsibility for your own comments instead of trying to blame others for pointing out the ridiculousness of what you posted.

[Fearless Leader]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

What does someone's political views have to do with this argument?

You made the senseless comments....but I am negative.....and we are a tough crowd? How about taking a little responsibility for your own comments instead of trying to blame others for pointing out the ridiculousness of what you posted.

Yeah, Blackthroated, why do you have to always be so negative?

[King Glorious]

In all seriousness, how long have they been at it? I know before Street Sense, we heard all the time about a supposed "Juvenile Jinx". We also heard all about how a horse with only two starts at three couldn't win it. Now, we've had two in a row. How many years and how many starters did it take for Wayne Lukas before he finally won one? Just because something hasn't happened YET doesn't mean that it can't happen.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

In all seriousness, how long have they been at it? I know before Street Sense, we heard all the time about a supposed "Juvenile Jinx". We also heard all about how a horse with only two starts at three couldn't win it. Now, we've had two in a row. How many years and how many starters did it take for Wayne Lukas before he finally won one? Just because something hasn't happened YET doesn't mean that it can't happen.

Here is the utter fallacy of your argument, since you either don't know it, or choose to ignore it. They have failed MISERABLY with their current plan. One horse after another disappears once sent to Dubai, and when they occasionally do reappear, they fail more often than not. And, not only that, they have shown unbelievably poor judgement in their purchases. Yes, occasionally they are successful, but when you throw money around the way they do, something has to stick. The bottom line is that their ROI is miserable.

Take a look at the pps for the 6th at Aqueduct on Wednesday. Or, look at the 5th from Aqueduct today....or the 3rd from last Wednesday. The cards at Aqueduct, virtually every Fall, are littered with their mistakes. And, do you think when they purchase these horses they are pointing for November in Ozone Park?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Here is the utter fallacy of your argument, since you either don't know it, or choose to ignore it. They have failed MISERABLY with their current plan. One horse after another disappears once sent to Dubai, and when they occasionally do reappear, they fail more often than not. And, not only that, they have shown unbelievably poor judgement in their purchases. Yes, occasionally they are successful, but when you throw money around the way they do, something has to stick. The bottom line is that their ROI is miserable.

Take a look at the pps for the 6th at Aqueduct on Wednesday. Or, look at the 5th from Aqueduct today....or the 3rd from last Wednesday. The cards at Aqueduct, virtually every Fall, are littered with their mistakes. And, do you think when they purchase these horses they are pointing for November in Ozone Park?

I do not deny at all that they have failed with their current plan. I don't deny that they have shown poor judgement with their purchases. I think this purchase of Vineyard Haven is one of them. It's just my belief that the main reason for failure is not the plan itself but the horses that they chose to use to implement the plan. No doubt that many of the horses disappear once they are sent over there. I wonder if sometimes, the expectations placed on these horses by the public is not higher than it should be because of the ridiculous prices paid for them? What is it that makes them failures? Would they still be considered the same failures as horses if they cost $1k each instead of what they actually cost? That's my position. The purchase prices don't have any part in why I feel the way they feel. I don't feel like they've had many legitimate contenders or horses that failed to live up to their realistic expectations, not the expectations that were unfairly raised because of how much they cost. I also think that a lot of people fail to look at how much they pay relative to how much they have. The amounts may seem outrageous to us but that's because they live in a realm that is like a fantasy land to us. That doesn't mean that they don't waste a lot of money because they do. But for them, it's not a lot and it's probably very little in relation to how they'll feel if they win the race. Again, though, I don't deny that they have failed with their plan. Only, I look at is as they've failed SO FAR. I don't see it as a plan that can never work as some do.

[blackthroatedwind]

It will be a long time, if ever, before they get a horse as good as Street Cry. He was sent to Dubai.....and made his 3YO debut in the Discovery.....yeah, you got it, it was at their favorite track and during their favorite time of the year.....Aqueduct in the Fall.

Oh, yeah.....he lost.

[Linny]

Between what they've bought and what they've bred they have had alot of opportunity. If most any typical US-based operation had the horses and the financial wherewithall that Godolphin has, they would have at least gotten close, via good management.
I agree that at first they were buying all wrong. I mean...Comeonmom?? Remember too that they are also breeding alot of horses with exceptional pedigrees and yet I don't think a single homebred has even run in the Derby. The closest they got to a Derby was when Bernardini won the Preakness. Had he been 3 or 4 weeks further along that winter, he might have won them a Derby. He was based in the US and thus far there is no indication that a Dubai regimen works.
They took a dirt bred horse like Jalil and sent him to England. He was useless until he got his feet onto the dirt in Dubai. Then he came here and was handled easily at Suffolk Downs. That's progress. Has he run since?
I just think that they have too many horses to manage them all in the best way. This is not to say that they are ill cared for but they don't seem to spot them very well. Rick Mettee does a great job with what he gets but after training for 4 or 5 months in Dubai, by the time they get back to him...

King Glorious, it's not about how much they spend, we all know that they can outspend anyone. It's about how little they get back. If any wealthy business person went into the racing business and spent like Sheik Mo has and got his results, they'd have been out years ago. It's not viable. If they were buying $1k horses and getting these results, I'll say they were geniuses. If they pay $5m for a colt worth $1m, they still bought a million dollar colt that's a likely flop.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It will be a long time, if ever, before they get a horse as good as Street Cry. He was sent to Dubai.....and made his 3YO debut in the Discovery.....yeah, you got it, it was at their favorite track and during their favorite time of the year.....Aqueduct in the Fall.

Oh, yeah.....he lost.

I don't think Street Cry was as good as you do.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I don't think Street Cry was as good as you do.

Apparently you were sleeping when he beat Lido Palace in the UAE Derby ( and then missed Lido Palace's subsequent US campaign ) and when he absolutely drowned Congaree in the Stephen Foster ( one of the more impressive performances of this decade ).

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Apparently you were sleeping when he beat Lido Palace in the UAE Derby ( and then missed Lido Palace's subsequent US campaign ) and when he absolutely drowned Congaree in the Stephen Foster ( one of the more impressive performances of this decade ).

Actually, that Calder horse, Express Tour, nostrilized him in the UAE Derby.

But I guess that still doesn't make your first sentence technically incorrect.