Prop 8 Sucks

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Rileyoriley

You may not really be here but it's nice to see your humor lingers on my friend.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by GPK

Git outta here

When you promise me a rose garden

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

There should be a little provision saying that churches would reserve the right to not marry gays. But I don't see the problem in letting a government official marry them.

churches have the right to turn down anyone already. my husband and i got turned down by the priest at the roman catholic church where he grew up-we hadn't gone thru the six months of 'instruction' that they supposedly require. hell, we hadn't even known each other six months when we got married!!

i say supposedly because a few years later, his younger bro got married to a non catholic, no instruction, in the same church-but a different priest. now, she was knocked up...maybe he was just in a hurry to get her married and converted?

anyway, we got married by the judge, now the mayor of el dorado. almost 23 years later, and it's all good.

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Honu

When you promise me a rose garden

You got it babe

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by Rileyoriley

You may not really be here but it's nice to see your humor lingers on my friend.

Thank you.

And thanks for noticing I m not here.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by letswastemoney

There should be a little provision saying that churches would reserve the right to not marry gays. But I don't see the problem in letting a government official marry them.

does a rabbi have to marry a couple that's not jewish? does a priest have to marry a couple that's not catholic?

do we need to have provision's that make those answer's clear?

there's a difference between public and private space in the law. churches are private.

if i own a restaurant, under the law i can't discriminate. that doesn't mean when i go home i have no choice in whom comes to dinner.

why would a church need clarification on this point? if i'm a priest i can refuse to marry you because you didn't get baptized. or because i don't think you're in love. or because i'm busy. or because i just don't like you. or for no reason whatsoever.

do you still think a church that didn't want to would have to marry a gay couple? any examples anywhere that this has happened?

[Rileyoriley]

Originally Posted by Mortimer

Thank you.

And thanks for noticing I m not here.

I always notice when you're not here.



Or there.

[Mortimer]

Thanks again
















thud

[SCUDSBROTHER]

When you put this up to a majority vote, you're on a slippery slope, because you're empowering religion. If you look honestly at this, you'll see that religious people are having a say in how other people get to live. They are deciding who can get married(based atleast ,in part, on their religious views.) Majority rule is a way to get around the separation of church n' state.

[DerbyCat]

Alright, I'm going to throw in my two cents here (can't let Lori fight this battle single-handedly). Prop 8 p*ssed me off. I married my lifetime partner on August 15th in paddock #4 at Bay Meadows (we all know how much I loved that that track - there's the proof ). Sure, we had a lawyer draw up a trust, power of attorney and living will (at a cost of $3,500), had a civil union several years ago in Vermont and were registered domestic partners in California, but it's not the same. Yes, many of the rights are the same with a marriage and a domestic partnership (in California), the only big difference that I can think of off the top of my head is that my partner no longer has to pay taxes on the health benefits that she receives from my employer, she did when we were "domestic partners". But unlike "straight" marriage, mine probably won't be recognized if I cross state lines. If we are involved in an accident when we travel on vacation in another state, I may very well not be allowed to visit my wife in the hospital and make decisions on her care - my brother and his wife who live in Vermont would have no problem in this same situation. Unfair. If I move to another state, my marriage is not recognized, my brothers is. Unfair.

I'd like to discuss the "I chose to be gay". Who the h*ll would *choose* to be gay? Who *chooses* to be born tall or short, with brown eyes or blond hair, webbed toes - who chooses to be significantly different in any way? Why is 10% of the population left handed? Did you *choose* to like the opposite sex? I'm sorry for all of the folks born straight who just don't get it but I didn't choose this - I *knew* when I was 4 years old that I liked Lisa in my pre-school class the same way that my best friend Tommy liked her, but unfortunately, I absolutely knew in 1970 that a girl liking a girl was not cool - and how sad is that for a four year old kid to know that what they feel at the core of their very being is "not acceptable". It sucks.

For those of you in other parts of this great country, and there is no where else I'd rather live, I understand that this is not something you may understand, want to accept, or can even tolerate - but it is my life and the life or upwards of 10% of your fellow Americans - whether you like it or not, we are amongst you - we are your co-workers, your family members, your friends, your neighbors, and we may even be you. It's ok, we are all Americans and we look at for each other. The only thing that separates us is fear of the unknown, some hate, some misunderstanding and unfortunately, religious beliefs. There, I said it. Interpretation of the Bible separates us. You can read it anyway you want, but to say that my life is not worthy of the same rights you have is ridiculous. In the Old Testament, homosexuality is practically on the same level as eating shellfish and wearing blended fabrics - yes, all are an abomination. Think about why these items were "forbidden" - homosexuality didn't propagate the species, eating bad shellfish caused horrible illness and sometimes death, and blended fabrics simply looked tacky (ok, I made that part up). Times change, as evidenced by the Civil War, suffrage, Civil Rights, the fall of the Berlin Wall, etc. People afraid of change are simply fearful that the way that they live their life may change, and folks like to be comfortable. I know I do. But I also appreciate changes in my life and the lives of others – who can’t appreciate happiness and seeing others do well? Why wouldn’t we want that for others? Only two reasons – fear of change and wanting to impose your belief on others – neither are good reasons. Live your life, do it as well as you can, let others live theirs as well. And let God sort ‘em all out in the end – remember, that’s above your pay grade.

My two cents.

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Wow. You really said a mouthful here.

Your last sentence belongs in some kind of Hall of Shame.

I would like to know which part is Hall worthy. The part where people choose to be gay or the straight couple that don't get benefits because they choose not to get married?

is it really shameful to believe that people prefer a lifestyle than to say they are genetically inclined that have no control ?

[Danzig]

wing, i don't like liver. my mother used to make it when we were growing up. she said it was good for us, and hey, maybe it is. my oldest sister likes it, my dad likes it. the rest of us can't stand it. you think i chose to dislike something that supposedly is good for me? if i decided by god, i'm going to like the stuff regardless of what my taste buds tell me, that it would somehow be more palatable? or should i just accept that i don't like it, that it tastes like crap, and i should just eat what i do like? now, that may not be the best analogy, but there it is....

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by DerbyCat

Alright, I'm going to throw in my two cents here (can't let Lori fight this battle single-handedly). Prop 8 p*ssed me off. I married my lifetime partner on August 15th in paddock #4 at Bay Meadows (we all know how much I loved that that track - there's the proof ). Sure, we had a lawyer draw up a trust, power of attorney and living will (at a cost of $3,500), had a civil union several years ago in Vermont and were registered domestic partners in California, but it's not the same. Yes, many of the rights are the same with a marriage and a domestic partnership (in California), the only big difference that I can think of off the top of my head is that my partner no longer has to pay taxes on the health benefits that she receives from my employer, she did when we were "domestic partners". But unlike "straight" marriage, mine probably won't be recognized if I cross state lines. If we are involved in an accident when we travel on vacation in another state, I may very well not be allowed to visit my wife in the hospital and make decisions on her care - my brother and his wife who live in Vermont would have no problem in this same situation. Unfair. If I move to another state, my marriage is not recognized, my brothers is. Unfair.

I'd like to discuss the "I chose to be gay". Who the h*ll would *choose* to be gay? Who *chooses* to be born tall or short, with brown eyes or blond hair, webbed toes - who chooses to be significantly different in any way? Why is 10% of the population left handed? Did you *choose* to like the opposite sex? I'm sorry for all of the folks born straight who just don't get it but I didn't choose this - I *knew* when I was 4 years old that I liked Lisa in my pre-school class the same way that my best friend Tommy liked her, but unfortunately, I absolutely knew in 1970 that a girl liking a girl was not cool - and how sad is that for a four year old kid to know that what they feel at the core of their very being is "not acceptable". It sucks.

For those of you in other parts of this great country, and there is no where else I'd rather live, I understand that this is not something you may understand, want to accept, or can even tolerate - but it is my life and the life or upwards of 10% of your fellow Americans - whether you like it or not, we are amongst you - we are your co-workers, your family members, your friends, your neighbors, and we may even be you. It's ok, we are all Americans and we look at for each other. The only thing that separates us is fear of the unknown, some hate, some misunderstanding and unfortunately, religious beliefs. There, I said it. Interpretation of the Bible separates us. You can read it anyway you want, but to say that my life is not worthy of the same rights you have is ridiculous. In the Old Testament, homosexuality is practically on the same level as eating shellfish and wearing blended fabrics - yes, all are an abomination. Think about why these items were "forbidden" - homosexuality didn't propagate the species, eating bad shellfish caused horrible illness and sometimes death, and blended fabrics simply looked tacky (ok, I made that part up). Times change, as evidenced by the Civil War, suffrage, Civil Rights, the fall of the Berlin Wall, etc. People afraid of change are simply fearful that the way that they live their life may change, and folks like to be comfortable. I know I do. But I also appreciate changes in my life and the lives of others – who can’t appreciate happiness and seeing others do well? Why wouldn’t we want that for others? Only two reasons – fear of change and wanting to impose your belief on others – neither are good reasons. Live your life, do it as well as you can, let others live theirs as well. And let God sort ‘em all out in the end – remember, that’s above your pay grade.

My two cents.

that was a really good post. shame that some will completely ignore it and continue with what they think, rather then learn from what people who know, who are living it, will tell them.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Mike

I'll accept the two person marriage rule. There is the problem of multiple social security checks for the widows and widowers. Then, that brings up the whole problem of everyone within the polygamous marriage needed to have a contract with each and every other individual involved in this "marriage".

Now, let's talk about age of consent for marriage. Do we all agree that 16 years old is the right choice? Or do some think it should be higher? Lower? Different for boys than girls?

I feel 18 is the right age.

[Mike]

Good morning Anti-trust.
I'll go with 18 years old, too. Many states have lower ages for marriages if at least one parent gives consent, but I imagine there's usually some sort of pressure(i.e., pregnancy) going on if these younger folk just have to get married. And that's not a good reason to get married(see Bristol Palin)

If you're not old enough to have the required judgement to drink alcohol, how is it you can make the decision whether or not to get married

[GPK]

Originally Posted by DerbyCat

Alright, I'm going to throw in my two cents here (can't let Lori fight this battle single-handedly). Prop 8 p*ssed me off. I married my lifetime partner on August 15th in paddock #4 at Bay Meadows (we all know how much I loved that that track - there's the proof ). Sure, we had a lawyer draw up a trust, power of attorney and living will (at a cost of $3,500), had a civil union several years ago in Vermont and were registered domestic partners in California, but it's not the same. Yes, many of the rights are the same with a marriage and a domestic partnership (in California), the only big difference that I can think of off the top of my head is that my partner no longer has to pay taxes on the health benefits that she receives from my employer, she did when we were "domestic partners". But unlike "straight" marriage, mine probably won't be recognized if I cross state lines. If we are involved in an accident when we travel on vacation in another state, I may very well not be allowed to visit my wife in the hospital and make decisions on her care - my brother and his wife who live in Vermont would have no problem in this same situation. Unfair. If I move to another state, my marriage is not recognized, my brothers is. Unfair.

I'd like to discuss the "I chose to be gay". Who the h*ll would *choose* to be gay? Who *chooses* to be born tall or short, with brown eyes or blond hair, webbed toes - who chooses to be significantly different in any way? Why is 10% of the population left handed? Did you *choose* to like the opposite sex? I'm sorry for all of the folks born straight who just don't get it but I didn't choose this - I *knew* when I was 4 years old that I liked Lisa in my pre-school class the same way that my best friend Tommy liked her, but unfortunately, I absolutely knew in 1970 that a girl liking a girl was not cool - and how sad is that for a four year old kid to know that what they feel at the core of their very being is "not acceptable". It sucks.

For those of you in other parts of this great country, and there is no where else I'd rather live, I understand that this is not something you may understand, want to accept, or can even tolerate - but it is my life and the life or upwards of 10% of your fellow Americans - whether you like it or not, we are amongst you - we are your co-workers, your family members, your friends, your neighbors, and we may even be you. It's ok, we are all Americans and we look at for each other. The only thing that separates us is fear of the unknown, some hate, some misunderstanding and unfortunately, religious beliefs. There, I said it. Interpretation of the Bible separates us. You can read it anyway you want, but to say that my life is not worthy of the same rights you have is ridiculous. In the Old Testament, homosexuality is practically on the same level as eating shellfish and wearing blended fabrics - yes, all are an abomination. Think about why these items were "forbidden" - homosexuality didn't propagate the species, eating bad shellfish caused horrible illness and sometimes death, and blended fabrics simply looked tacky (ok, I made that part up). Times change, as evidenced by the Civil War, suffrage, Civil Rights, the fall of the Berlin Wall, etc. People afraid of change are simply fearful that the way that they live their life may change, and folks like to be comfortable. I know I do. But I also appreciate changes in my life and the lives of others – who can’t appreciate happiness and seeing others do well? Why wouldn’t we want that for others? Only two reasons – fear of change and wanting to impose your belief on others – neither are good reasons. Live your life, do it as well as you can, let others live theirs as well. And let God sort ‘em all out in the end – remember, that’s above your pay grade.

My two cents.

Well said. Hell...I never knew you were female ...much less a gay female.


I still love ya

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by Mike

Good morning Anti-trust.
I'll go with 18 years old, too. Many states have lower ages for marriages if at least one parent gives consent, but I imagine there's usually some sort of pressure(i.e., pregnancy) going on if these younger folk just have to get married. And that's not a good reason to get married(see Bristol Palin)

If you're not old enough to have the required judgement to drink alcohol, how is it you can make the decision whether or not to get married

personally I feel people should wait well into their 20's to get married now-a-days. So much changes in your life and personality and maturity from 18-23,24,25 ya know?

But the legal age should obviously be 18.


- oh and Derbycat great post! Thank you!

[GPK]

Originally Posted by Mike

I'm having trouble understanding why more than two persons can't enter into a marriage. Can someone help me to understand why wwe can't have polygamous marriages if all parties are consenting adults?

No moral objections, please

I had a hard enough time having one wife...I will pass on multiples wives

[DerbyCat]

Originally Posted by GPK

Well said. Hell...I never knew you were female ...much less a gay female.


I still love ya

Kev - Well I love ya too! You are truly a good man

I see myself in terms of being an *obsessive horse player* a lot more than I see myself as being a *lesbian*... labels are just things people call you to point out how you're different from them - on this site we all have one thing in common - horse racing - and I generally try not to talk about much more than that - I know I can't change the core beliefs of others here but I can point out a different perspective so they may be able to see that folks that are different aren't necessarily evil.

Where would the fun be if we were all the same?

[Mortimer]

Originally Posted by DerbyCat

Kev - Well I love ya too! You are truly a good man

I see myself in terms of being an *obsessive horse player* a lot more than I see myself as being a *lesbian*... labels are just things people call you to point out how you're different from them - on this site we all have one thing in common - horse racing - and I generally try not to talk about much more than that - I know I can't change the core beliefs of others here but I can point out a different perspective so they may be able to see that folks that are different aren't necessarily evil.

Where would the fun be if we were all the same?

Shut your big mouth you DNA junkie.