"He beat nothing"

[Dr. Watson]

Originally Posted by GBBob

umm..no..that's not correct at all

Many 2 year olds are 100% sound but haven't figured it out yet..Nothing to do with soundness

how are they going to figure it out by not racing? i dont see what is complicated about running. even for a horse.

[GBBob]

[quote=Riot]Of course. It becomes pertinent when people (outside the industry, the AR whackos come to mind) say, "We need laws to stop racing two-year-olds, their bones are soft, you are breaking them down".

Nope. Actually that builds strong bones that can stand up to racing.[/QUOTE]

So you think it makes sense to run an immature 2 yr old who can't break out of a gate straight just to build strong bones?

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Dr. Watson

how are they going to figure it out by not racing? i dont see what is complicated about running. even for a horse.

They figure out the basics in training..some are quicker than others. I agree that they 'learn" a lot from running, but the blanket statement you made about 2 year olds isn't right. They all don't progress at the same rate and you can do more harm running at two if they aren't ready then waiting until they are. The key is a strong foundation...if you can get that as a two year old by running..great..but if that horse is heavy, jumpy, stupid, immature, etc..then constant galloping, works etc will do the same thing.

[Riot]

So you think it makes sense to run an immature 2 yr old who can't break out of a gate straight just to build strong bones?

Heck no. But, if he can handle training, work in training, do it to the extent he safely can. The point is that young growing bones are malleable to stress and strain. It's the perfect time to build strong racehorse bone. Young growing horses that don't undergo any challenge to build strong bones don't. And later on in their careers, they break down more often than those that were worked.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Riot

Heck no. But, if he can handle training, work in training, do it to the extent he safely can. The point is that young growing bones are malleable to stress and strain. It's the perfect time to build strong racehorse bone. Young growing horses that don't undergo any challenge to build strong bones don't. And later on in their careers, they break down more often than those that were worked.

Is this conversation about worked or running? I thought you and Watson were saying the only effective 2 yr old was a racing 2 yr old?

[Dr. Watson]

I just didn't think anyone would keep an always sound 2yo on the bench its entire 2yo season. which is why a study would show that horses who race at age two tend to be sounder.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Dr. Watson

I just didn't think anyone would keep an always sound 2yo on the bench its entire 2yo season. which is why a study would show that horses who race at age two tend to be sounder.

We don't have time for confounding factors here. So let's just ignore them.

Else it cuts down on the number of times we can mention "bone density".

You need to adaptively remodel your way of thinking. Got milk?

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Dr. Watson

I just didn't think anyone would keep an always sound 2yo on the bench his entire 2yo season. which is why a study would show that horses who race at age two tend to be sounder.

Point # 2 only makes sense if you believe Point #1 to be true..and I don't.

At this point I'll agree to disagree...I have several two year olds who are perfectly sound, but aren't ready mentally/physically (too heavy) to run yet. They work consistantly and are building a solid foundation.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Dr. Watson

I just didn't think anyone would keep an always sound 2yo on the bench its entire 2yo season. which is why a study would show that horses who race at age two tend to be sounder.

Uh ... no.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Is this conversation about worked or running? I thought you and Watson were saying the only effective 2 yr old was a racing 2 yr old?

I can only try and explain myself. Which isn't always easy It refers to speed (mph), distance, repetitivity of activity.

Steve talked about this (racing 2-year-olds and breakdowns) with Dr. Allday once on ATR, I think post-Derby last year - if he can remember which show, maybe he could reference that replay, as Dr. Allday covered why it is important to race (or work as if racing) 2-year-olds.

Those interested can go to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

(Pub Med) and enter the search terms racehorse bone and come up with tons of interesting articles about racehorse exercise physiology.

[Payson Dave]

Interesting discussion.....

Regarding the study/conclusion that horses that race at two tend to break down less than horses that don't races until three....

just wondering here...
if we take 4 categories of racehorses:
A) Sound 2yo's that race at two
B) Sound 2yo's that don't race at two
C) Un-sound 2yo's that race at two
D) Un-sound 2yo's that don't race at two


First... is there a value in defining "racing career"....is it number of starts or is it age at retirement from racing.

Irregardless...I'm guessing that the first two categories are more likely to result in longer racing careers ....(in general it would seem that starting off sound is better than starting off unsound)

?? In general would Category C & D horses be statistically more likely to breakdown than Category A & B

?? In general are there more Category A horses than Category B horses....

Statistically if starting off sound is better than starting off unsound... and if there are more sound 2yo racers than sound 2yo non-racers....then it seems likely that the category that shows the greatest number of horses with longer racing careers will come from Category A

just wondering is it really the racing at two that promotes the longer careers or is it the way the numbers are sliced and diced???

btw I'm an advocate of 2yo racing...2yo mdns are my bread and butter

hmmmm ... .....

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by AeWingnut

I have observed that horses who are at the top of their game at two (War Pass) are done by three. I know there are exceptions (Street Sense)
But Curlin didn't make his first start until he was 3 and went on to have a nice career. I don't recall hearing too much about soundness being a problem for him.

don't confuse ability or precocity with durability. for every war pass, i'd imagine you'd find a macho uno. also, since war pass wasn't allowed to attempt a comeback, there's no way of knowing what else he could have done at three.

[Dr. Watson]

Originally Posted by Payson Dave

B) Sound 2yo's that don't race two

I wonder how much of these kinds are just owners getting bs'ed. if a 2yo is healthy and can compete at an acceptable level right away I find it hard to believe they would not try to race it all year. if a horse is so nutty that it cant figure out how to run in a straight line, how to run a turn without bolting, or how to come out of a starting gate, its prob not sound or just a complete mental case. Jim Mckay said Whirlaway did all those things, bolted to the outside fence and did a bunch of crazy stuff. they raced him a bunch at 2 and he won the triple crown.

[MLC]

The 2 year olds that I remember weren't put into a maiden race of 1, 1 1/16, or 1 1/8 of a mile. They were raced at shorter distances and ended up that season at a mile or 1 1/16. Then they were turned out for the winter before starting up at shorter distances as they prepared for the Derby.

[Riot]

[quote=Payson Dave]just wondering is it really the racing at two that promotes the longer careers or is it the way the numbers are sliced and diced??? QUOTE]

Yes, it's racing at two, but remember it's specfic reference is to bone, and to fractures causing breakdown subsequently over a horses career. I'll dig it up and send it to you privately.

It's a peer-reviewed published scientific retrospective study (I think it's at least 10 years old), and it's methodology has never been found wanting.

During all the public and industry attention and discussion surrounding Barbaro and Eight Belles, I know Dr. Steve Allday has said yes, we need to continue to race 2-year-olds, on Steve's show; I know Dr. Larry Bramlage has said the same in interviews post- Eight Belles (maybe in BloodHorse interview or article?) and it's one of the reasons why the American Association of Equine Practioners supports and encourages 2-year-old horse racing as necessary for the health and welfare of racing horses, versus implementing laws that prevent the racing of young horses, like the AR types would like.

This study, and others like it, have contributed to knowing confidently that the industry is doing the horses justice to race them as two-year-olds - we are not evil!

There is tons of information out there regarding racehorse safety. Obviously continued research is ongoing and important. Toe rims of a certain height were recently banned, and that wasn't an arbitrary thing. It's because it was found that short ones are safe, wearing long ones definitely predispose to injury.

[Dr. Watson]

Originally Posted by Riot

we are not evil!

im so glad to know. i might have to bump your preseason ranking up a slot or three!!

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Danzig

don't confuse ability or precocity with durability. for every war pass, i'd imagine you'd find a macho uno. also, since war pass wasn't allowed to attempt a comeback, there's no way of knowing what else he could have done at three.

I'm thinking they knew
that is why he didn't come back


he won the Juvenile and all he was going to do after that was lower the stud fee

[Cannon Shell]

Racing at 2 is not a bad thing as the animal right nuts want you to believe but not racing at 2 is also not a huge negative either depending on the reason for not running. While buliding bone through training is important I have a hard time believing that 1:11 of really fast exercise (a race) over a 365 day period can make a big difference on a horses bone structure overall versus the 26 or so days of daily training per month. Many horses who run at 2 are unsound but it may be the only chance that they will have at racing because they are just too crooked and as they grow older and heavier their legs simply wont hold up. Many horses that dont race at two are simply too immature to gain anything by racing at two. The experience that a horse gains while racing at a young age is as important as anything. Other outside influences that have nothing to do with soundness and come into play are the economic situation of the owner, the trainers concern over their win percentage, the need for larger stables to weed out horses to make way for the new ones coming in, date of birth of the individual horse and its maturity level, opportunities at the track where you are stabled, etc.