Andy Beyer, Dutrow, DRF

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Kasept

But no regret that Cigar's first trainer (Alex Hassinger) couldn't get Cigar to do more than hit the board in a Gr. III at Bay Meadows? What's that? Forgot that Mott authored the greatest move up ever of Cigar off Hassinger? And no regret about Cigar ending up sterile though? A healthy, strapping horse like Cigar ends up sterile? Imagine that... Strange reaction to 'hay, oats and water'.

Turf to dirt

That was from chasing Siphon

[TheSpyder]

I'm starting my tennis season in two weeks. Is anyone friends with Mary Wolfson or Dutrow? I've got to improve to really take the next step.

I'm planning on going to the dentist next week and looking to put 50 lbs. on my a**.

Seriously though, looking at Drugs PP's, it would be interesting to see all Wolfson's horses PP's.

Spyder

[justindew]

I guess I'm the only one who's more interested in the fact that DRF ran this article and gave credence to disingenuous assertions like "Beyer should have gathered the facts".

Also, for what it's worth, many of my friends gamble. None of them gamble on horses because they INCORRECTLY think that everyone cheats. Beyer's column effectivley illustrates why.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Kasept

But no regret that Cigar's first trainer (Alex Hassinger) couldn't get Cigar to do more than hit the board in a Gr. III at Bay Meadows? What's that? Forgot that Mott authored the greatest move up ever of Cigar off Hassinger? And no regret about Cigar ending up sterile though? A healthy, strapping horse like Cigar ends up sterile? Imagine that... Strange reaction to 'hay, oats and water'.

Actually Mott did not move the horse up off of Hassinger originally as his first 4 races for Mott were actually far worse than his previous form had been for Hassinger. It wasn't until he ran the horse on dirt that he became Cigar. The sterility issue is very hard to blame specifically on Mott just as Lure or Saarlands issues are hard to place on Shug. I dont have skills like Drugs to post the pp's but he is probably not a classic example.

[Cannon Shell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIXV-mHds5w

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Actually Mott did not move the horse up off of Hassinger originally as his first 4 races for Mott were actually far worse than his previous form had been for Hassinger. It wasn't until he ran the horse on dirt that he became Cigar. The sterility issue is very hard to blame specifically on Mott just as Lure or Saarlands issues are hard to place on Shug. I dont have skills like Drugs to post the pp's but he is probably not a classic example.

chuck wasn't cigar bred for the grass and that was why they kept putting him on the 'sod

who decide to try him on the dirt , did paulson ask mott to maybe try the dirt?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by gales0678

chuck wasn't cigar bred for the grass and that was why they kept putting him on the 'sod

who decide to try him on the dirt , did paulson ask mott to maybe try the dirt?

Cigar was bred for grass though he had broken his miaden on dirt with a pretty good number. His sire Palace Music was a turf runner though he never sired much other than Cigar. Cigar was running consistently in the upper 90's beyerwise for Hassinger and mid 70's for Mott. Interestingly enough he didnt race on Lasix when he came to NY but that excuse was blown out of the water by the two huge dirt races w/o lasix (the alw race and the NYRA mile)

[Travis Stone]

The talk about the sterile-issues and Mott and Cigar has been mentioned before.

To me the larger consideration is Cigar was allowed to grow into a horse. Imagine that, a horse. Today they're yanked off the track at 3-years-old. Who knows how good (or bad) some of the start 3YO's of the past decade or so would have been if given time to mature and develop.

Not that development is the only reason behind his ascent, but certainly would have to play a role.

Disclaimer: I'm a Cigar homer. His '95 BC was my first BC in person, and he's one of the main reasons why I'm in the game today.

[gales0678]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Cigar was bred for grass though he had broken his miaden on dirt with a pretty good number. His sire Palace Music was a turf runner though he never sired much other than Cigar. Cigar was running consistently in the upper 90's beyerwise for Hassinger and mid 70's for Mott. Interestingly enough he didnt race on Lasix when he came to NY but that excuse was blown out of the water by the two huge dirt races w/o lasix (the alw race and the NYRA mile)

Chuck in your opinon what happened to make Cigar take off and become a champion after struggling , was it all due to a surface switch or is mott simply that much better than Hassinger

and did bailey blow the streak in del mar by cahsing too hot of a pace , letting Dare and Go come from behind

[sumitas]

It certainly appears a case has been made that cheating is still rampant in the sport . Remember that the leading trainers at Del Mar all had numerous positives and that Shapiro called that "shameful."

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

The talk about the sterile-issues and Mott and Cigar has been mentioned before.

To me the larger consideration is Cigar was allowed to grow into a horse. Imagine that, a horse. Today they're yanked off the track at 3-years-old. Who knows how good (or bad) some of the start 3YO's of the past decade or so would have been if given time to mature and develop.

Not that development is the only reason behind his ascent, but certainly would have to play a role.

Disclaimer: I'm a Cigar homer. His '95 BC was my first BC in person, and he's one of the main reasons why I'm in the game today.

That's a good point, in addition having Jerry Bailey coming aboard after Mike Smith rode him to his first dirt win no doubt helped. Bailey in his book made a point of mentioning he was a very different horse on dirt than when he 1st rode him in a turf race at Belmont before the switch was made to dirt for the remainder of his career.

[sumitas]

The point has been made that Cigar was a drug freak turned sterile .

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Kasept

But no regret that Cigar's first trainer (Alex Hassinger) couldn't get Cigar to do more than hit the board in a Gr. III at Bay Meadows? What's that? Forgot that Mott authored the greatest move up ever of Cigar off Hassinger? And no regret about Cigar ending up sterile though? A healthy, strapping horse like Cigar ends up sterile? Imagine that... Strange reaction to 'hay, oats and water'.

In recent years, we've seen high profile horses like Lure, A P Valentine, Saarland, Songster, and George Washington have fertility problems, and Lost in the Fog died of cancer. Are we implying, by logical extenstion, that Shug, Zito, Albertrani, O'Brien and Gilchrist aren't "hay, oats, and water" either?

[Linny]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

In recent years, we've seen high profile horses like Lure, A P Valentine, Saarland, Songster, and George Washington have fertility problems, and Lost in the Fog died of cancer. Are we implying, by logical extenstion, that Shug, Zito, Albertrani, O'Brien and Gilchrist aren't "hay, oats, and water" either?

Precisionist was sterile or nearly so. If these stallions are sterile then why are others trained by the same men (especially O'Brien, those Coolmore horses breed like rabbits) showing similar problems. If a trainer was send horse after horse into the shed and they were proving sterile, I can understand looking for connections but none of those leading trainers has shown a trend, that I know of.

I'm not sure what the infertility rate of the breed is, and I'm not sure it could be determined. Since a significant percentage of males are gelded and I'm sure that some "unknowns" are retired, bred, prove sterile and return to the races with no fanfare. When the horse is Georg Washington or Cigar, it's a headline. When it's a non entity, he just shows up in the entries and no one is the wiser.

[parsixfarms]

A couple of thoughts on Grening's article:

1. Dutrow claims that training for a prolonged period of time over the Calder surface tends to screw a horse up. If that's the case, then what Wolfson is doing is even more remarkable.

2. Sallusto is correct in saying that "not all trainers are created equal." However, the PPs above in this thread, as well as the work Dutrow did with horses like Saint Liam and Silver Train (amid countless others), each of whom were with pretty respectable horsemen before they went into his barn, force one to reach either one of two conclusions: (a) Dutrow, Wolfson and the like are either 10-15 lengths better than any other trainer on the backstretch; or (b) they have some "edge" that no one else does, which causes their horses to run that much better than everyone else's.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Kasept

But no regret that Cigar's first trainer (Alex Hassinger) couldn't get Cigar to do more than hit the board in a Gr. III at Bay Meadows? What's that? Forgot that Mott authored the greatest move up ever of Cigar off Hassinger? And no regret about Cigar ending up sterile though? A healthy, strapping horse like Cigar ends up sterile? Imagine that... Strange reaction to 'hay, oats and water'.

Obviously, the biggest "transformation" with Cigar was that he wanted to run on dirt. He showed that early in his career, but his connections were very stubborn or very stupid.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Obviously, the biggest "transformation" with Cigar was that he wanted to run on dirt. He showed that early in his career, but his connections were very stubborn or very stupid.

Exactly CJ... which is part of my point. Generally, since few know the details of what went on with horses before they moved, it's impossible to know why or how they responded better in the care of others. We can analyze PP's till the cows come home, but won't know what was going on to unlock potential or restore lustre in specific horses.

[blackthroatedwind]

Cigar made his first two career starts on dirt for Hassinger and I believe his Beyer figs were 90 and 95 ( or something close ). It doesn't feel like Mott performed any miracle other than transfering him to his preferred surface.....finally.

[cmorioles]

I think one thing that is being overlooked in all this is that a lot of these guys, and Dutrow definitely, bet, and they bet a lot.

If they are cheating, they are stealing from everyone, whether you bet on him or against him.

[gales0678]

how do we know rick beat on sat though?

also didn't he have a horse in the next race that was the favorite and was off the board?