shaq to the Cavs

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

This is basic stuff. I am actually surprised that we are even discussing this. Its even dumber than going over the merits of delonte west.

well dala. for a cleveland fan the merits of delonte west are mainly that he isn't Larry Hughes, Eric Snow, Daniel Gibson, Jeff Mcinnis, Sasha Pavlovic, Luke Jackson. They became a much better team with the acquisition of him late last year. He's a good player. He plays good defense and has some offensive skill. Those are his merits. It is not that difficult. It's pretty much basketball 101 isn't it?? The reason the Cavs went from a 45-50 regular season team to a 66 win team this year was because they played two NBA caliber guards for the first time since they got LeBron. The season failed because they lost to Orlando, but nonetheless it was the 2nd most successful team in organization history. The '07 team lost in the finals and the '76, '92 and this year's teams made it to game 6 of the conference finals.

Dont' give me your Arenas crap that West cant' guard him. West is a good aggressive defender. He helped the team. HE has merits.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Cleveland would not unload Ilgauskas without getting a quality center in return. they need to rest Shaq more as they are planning on playing deep into the playoffs and he will need to be fresh for another month and a half if things go right. Not to mention putting all your eggs in the Shaq basket with no safety net seems to be an extremely risky play. And 18 minutes a game is a a quarter and a half, a lot of time to have to play..... who exactly would be the back up? Cleveland cant replace him in the free agent market this year.

Unrestricted Free Agents

Raef LaFrentz
Radoslav Nesterovic
Jason Collins
Zaza Pachulia
Robert Swift
Chris Mihm
Saer Sene
Jarron Collins
Didier Ilunga-Mbenga
Calvin Booth
Melvin Ely
Ryan Hollins
Lorenzen Wright
Adonal Foyle
Jamaal Magloire
Sean Marks
Theo Ratliff
Patrick O'Bryant
Jake Voskuhl
Dikembe Mutombo


See anybody there you want to play 18 minutes? Cleveland just brought in Chinese money, they aren't worried about the cap this year especially with Shaq's 20 mill coming off the cap next year.

No GM in his right mind would pay a non starter or sixth man 10 million dollars by choice. When factoring in luxury tax, thats 20 million for a guy playing 18 minutes.

If he could get rid of the contract he would because in place of Z, you could get a guy like Pachulia and then another decent wing player for the same cash or you could just save the money.

This isnt play money chuck.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

well dala. for a cleveland fan the merits of delonte west are mainly that he isn't Larry Hughes, Eric Snow, Daniel Gibson, Jeff Mcinnis, Sasha Pavlovic, Luke Jackson. They became a much better team with the acquisition of him late last year. He's a good player. He plays good defense and has some offensive skill. Those are his merits. It is not that difficult. It's pretty much basketball 101 isn't it?? The reason the Cavs went from a 45-50 regular season team to a 66 win team this year was because they played two NBA caliber guards for the first time since they got LeBron. The season failed because they lost to Orlando, but nonetheless it was the 2nd most successful team in organization history. The '07 team lost in the finals and the '76, '92 and this year's teams made it to game 6 of the conference finals.

Dont' give me your Arenas crap that West cant' guard him. West is a good aggressive defender. He helped the team. HE has merits.

In your zest and quest for deliberation, you miss the point. Delonte West, while undoubtedly an NBA caliber player, is not an NBA caliber player anyone should waste time arguing over. He is a very average NBA player.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The "Jordan rules" were to knock Jordan down and play overly physical with him to discourage him from driving. That had zero to do with open teammates. .

This post here communicates a lack of understanding for what the "jordan rules" were. Sure, part of the rules were to be physical with him and to "knock him on his ass" any time he went by someone. But, mainly, it was a set of rules of how to defend against specifically HIM on certain parts of the floor. Here is an excerpt in Chuck Daly's own words:

"If Michael was at the point, we forced him left and doubled him. If he was on the left wing, we went immediately to a double team from the top. If he was on the right wing, we went to a slow double team. He could hurt you equally from either wing -- hell, he could hurt you from the hot-dog stand -- but we just wanted to vary the look. And if he was on the box, we doubled with a big guy.


Hmmmm. Seems to me Michael was double a lot in the perimeter which YOU said doesnt happen in the NBA. And if he was doubled, wouldnt the guy doubling be leaving a man open?

LOL. Why can't you just admit, just once, maybe you made a mistake?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

No GM in his right mind would pay a non starter or sixth man 10 million dollars by choice. When factoring in luxury tax, thats 20 million for a guy playing 18 minutes.

If he could get rid of the contract he would because in place of Z, you could get a guy like Pachulia and then another decent wing player for the same cash or you could just save the money.

This isnt play money chuck.

How much do you think Pachulia is going to want? 7 or 8 million? He isnt going take a one year deal either. Of all teams Cleveland is not concerned with the money this year. They would go way over the cap to win next year. Shaq's 20 million comes off the cap next year when they will go after another star. They are flush with cash after taking on the Chinese investors. Seriously they NEED to win this year more than any team perhaps ever because if they dont and LeBron walks, the franchise is dead. Seriously dead. Think Danny Ferry is going to try to save a few bucks? Hell he will probably be replaced after this year anyway without a championship or 7 games final loss.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

This post here communicates a lack of understanding for what the "jordan rules" were. Sure, part of the rules were to be physical with him and to "knock him on his ass" any time he went by someone. But, mainly, it was a set of rules of how to defend against specifically HIM on certain parts of the floor. Here is an excerpt in Chuck Daly's own words:

"If Michael was at the point, we forced him left and doubled him. If he was on the left wing, we went immediately to a double team from the top. If he was on the right wing, we went to a slow double team. He could hurt you equally from either wing -- hell, he could hurt you from the hot-dog stand -- but we just wanted to vary the look. And if he was on the box, we doubled with a big guy.


Hmmmm. Seems to me Michael was double a lot in the perimeter which YOU said doesnt happen in the NBA. And if he was doubled, wouldnt the guy doubling be leaving a man open?

LOL. Why can't you just admit, just once, maybe you made a mistake?

Please stop. The theory that a player should shoot three pointers at a higher % when on the court with great player is rubbish. Open is open. What % of three point shots taken are contested shots? The vast majority are open looks regardless of teams or players. We arent talking about drawing a defense away for layups. There is no doubt that a guy going to the basket can create open lanes and easy shots. But the three point line doesnt move and isnt an easier shot regardless of arena or teammates.

[horseofcourse]

Ilgauskas has one more year left. He's retiring after this year. They will absolutely pay him to back up Shaq and play 20 minutes a game. It means nothing to them. This upcoming year is it for them. They don't have to win the championship...but I think they have to get to the finals and make a good showing to absolutely ensure what's his name stays.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

In your zest and quest for deliberation, you miss the point. Delonte West, while undoubtedly an NBA caliber player, is not an NBA caliber player anyone should waste time arguing over. He is a very average NBA player.

and so is Trevor Ariza an NBA caliber player anyone should waste time arguring over. I agree with you.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

and so is Trevor Ariza an NBA caliber player anyone should waste time arguring over. I agree with you.

Then we are in complete accord because I never thought he was anything special either.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

Ilgauskas has one more year left. He's retiring after this year. They will absolutely pay him to back up Shaq and play 20 minutes a game. It means nothing to them. This upcoming year is it for them. They don't have to win the championship...but I think they have to get to the finals and make a good showing to absolutely ensure what's his name stays.

The point is rather moot. They will pay ilguaskas because they have no choice but to pay him. but anyone that thinks that an NBA team would pay a guy 10 million for 20 minutes a game BY CHOICE simply has no understanding of the finances of the game. The only guy that would do that is Isaiah.

At this point, Z is a bad contract. At ten million, if he wasnt, there would be no need for a 38 year old shaq.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Please stop. The theory that a player should shoot three pointers at a higher % when on the court with great player is rubbish. Open is open. What % of three point shots taken are contested shots? The vast majority are open looks regardless of teams or players. We arent talking about drawing a defense away for layups. There is no doubt that a guy going to the basket can create open lanes and easy shots. But the three point line doesnt move and isnt an easier shot regardless of arena or teammates.

LOL. you said nothing to disprove the point. All you did was reiterate your baseless rubbish.

Here is a quote from SI from Michael Jordan himself in regards to the Jordan rules:

"Sometimes I wish I could be my teammates looking at that defense," says Jordan. "It must be nice. But it isn't nice for me."

Jordan took the attention of the defense. If they double, someone is open. You said earlier in the thread teams don't double on the perimeter in the NBA. What gives? Are you going back on that now?

If a team has to double one man, a player is going to be more open than if that defense didnt have to double. Im sorry you dont/cant grasp this basic fact.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

LOL. you said nothing to disprove the point. All you did was reiterate your baseless rubbish.

Here is a quote from SI from Michael Jordan himself in regards to the Jordan rules:

"Sometimes I wish I could be my teammates looking at that defense," says Jordan. "It must be nice. But it isn't nice for me."

Jordan took the attention of the defense. If they double, someone is open. You said earlier in the thread teams don't double on the perimeter in the NBA. What gives? Are you going back on that now?

If a team has to double one man, a player is going to be more open than if that defense didnt have to double. Im sorry you dont/cant grasp this basic fact.

That was 20 years ago. Things and rules change. How often were Wade and LeBron and Kobe and Carmello doubled during the playoffs? When a guy drives to the basket and help comes, that does not count as a double. As I stated before, three points shots are the same regardless of where they are taken and who they are taken by. They arent easier or harder because of other players. They are 23' 9" regardless.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

If a team has to double one man, a player is going to be more open than if that defense didnt have to double. Im sorry you dont/cant grasp this basic fact.

More open? That takes the cake. So the defensive pressure is 10 feet away instead of 7?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

That was 20 years ago. Things and rules change. How often were Wade and LeBron and Kobe and Carmello doubled during the playoffs? When a guy drives to the basket and help comes, that does not count as a double. As I stated before, three points shots are the same regardless of where they are taken and who they are taken by. They arent easier or harder because of other players. They are 23' 9" regardless.

What a weak cop out. Regardless if it was 20 years ago or not, ONE player and the attention he receieved created open shots for his teammates. It is an irrefutible fact.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

What a weak cop out. Regardless if it was 20 years ago or not, ONE player and the attention he receieved created open shots for his teammates. It is an irrefutible fact.

Are you kidding? This is what you are hanging your hat on? We are talking about THREE POINT SHOTS!!!! The Three point line is the same distance away from the basket regardless of WHO throws you the ball. Why is THAT so hard to grasp? There is no logic that says that a 24 foot shot is any easier if you are "more" open. It is still a 24 foot shot. If i am doubled teamed and pass to a cutting teammate for a layup, that is one thing. But if I pass to a guy behind the three point line the shot is equally as challenging as if the guy simply creates his own three point shot or has a pick run for him to get a three point shot.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Are you kidding? This is what you are hanging your hat on? We are talking about THREE POINT SHOTS!!!! The Three point line is the same distance away from the basket regardless of WHO throws you the ball. Why is THAT so hard to grasp? There is no logic that says that a 24 foot shot is any easier if you are "more" open. It is still a 24 foot shot. If i am doubled teamed and pass to a cutting teammate for a layup, that is one thing. But if I pass to a guy behind the three point line the shot is equally as challenging as if the guy simply creates his own three point shot or has a pick run for him to get a three point shot.

There is a HUGE difference between an uncontested three and one with a hand in your face.

Put the cheeseburger down and try it some time.

If you can't grasp that, you should stick to watching baseball.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

There is a HUGE difference between an uncontested three and one with a hand in your face.

Put the cheeseburger down and try it some time.

If you can't grasp that, you should stick to watching baseball.

So if you dont have a Kobe or LeBron on your team you have to take contested threes? FYI I'm sure that my personal basketball experience far outweighs yours if you would like to go there.

If you would like we could have a three point shootout this summer? Of course as many cheeseburgers as I eat I would only play for money. I can easily swing by Washington on my way to Saratoga and pay for my trip.

[dalakhani]

Jason Kidd on the subject:

"I could sit and watch from the bench," Kidd said. "[LeBron] is so talented, he's going to get guys wide-open shots. So we'll look at free agency and what happens for me next year."

I guess Jason Kidd doesnt know what he is talking about either.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So if you dont have a Kobe or LeBron on your team you have to take contested threes? FYI I'm sure that my personal basketball experience far outweighs yours if you would like to go there.

If you would like we could have a three point shootout this summer? Of course as many cheeseburgers as I eat I would only play for money. I can easily swing by Washington on my way to Saratoga and pay for my trip.

LOL. Im just giving you crap chuck.

To answer the first question, no, you dont need kobe or lebron on your team to shoot uncontested threes. The point is that guys like that are going to create so much attention that three point shooters are going to get more unconteted looks.

[dalakhani]

This should settle it:

http://wp2.medina-gazette.com/2009/0...his-own-magic/

The ball is now in the Orlando Magic’s court.

Actually, it’s in the hands of LeBron James at the top of the key, with the Cavaliers small forward having yet to use his dribble, but for the first time in the Eastern Conference finals, it is Or-lando that now faces a major adjustment.

If Magic coach Stan Van Gundy doesn’t come up with a way to slow down James in Game 6 tonight at Amway Arena, the series could be coming back to Cleveland for Game 7 on Monday.

“It is just too easy for him right now,” Orlando center Dwight Howard said. “He’s catching it in his sweet spot and it’s one dribble to the basket. We’ve got to make it a little tougher on him.”

James, who is averaging 41.2 points, 8.6 rebounds and 8.2 assists in the series, had 37 points, 14 rebounds and 12 assists in Cleveland’s 112-102 win in Game 5. The last player to put up at least those numbers in a playoff game was Oscar Robertson in 1963 (41-15-12).

The league MVP did much of his damage in the fourth quarter, when he had 17 points, four boards and four assists. James scored or assisted on the Cavaliers’ first 29 points of the period. Going back to the end of the third quarter, he had a hand in 32 consecutive Cleveland points.

The 24-year-old did almost all his damage after receiving the ball near the top of the key, which al-lowed him to make jumpers, drive or, if Orlando tried to double-team, pass to team-mates for wide-open looks.

“The game is basically all LeBron, all the time,” Van Gundy said. “It is a difficult area to double-team him in. It’s a difficult part of the floor because of his shooters and his passing.

“You play him one-on-one and it is real tough. He makes shots. If he gets into the paint, it’s automatically a foul. It becomes very, very difficult.”

It will remain difficult as long as Mo Williams and Daniel “Boobie” Gibson, who were a combined 9-of-13 from behind the 3-point arc in Game 5, continue to make shots.

“That’s something that as a unit, players and coaches, we came up with trying to exploit their defense with all our shooters out there,” James said.

“Having a live dribble ei-ther at the top of the key or the free throw line is key for me and our team. It adds a threat of me jabbing, jabbing, taking a shot or getting to the paint and either taking a shot or creating for my teammates. Any time you are as dangerous as I am, or the best guys in this league, it makes you that much more dangerous because they don’t know what you are going to do.”

The Cavaliers have used that offensive set before, but they went to it extensively down the stretch of Game 5.

Once James gets the ball, the play calls for two Cleve-land 3-point shooters, in this case Williams and Gibson, to go to opposite corners. Two big men, usually Anderson Varejao and Zydrunas Ilgauskas, station themselves near the base-line, a few feet outside the lane.

With James in the old-school, triple-threat position – shoot, drive or pass – it becomes extremely hard to double-team him.

Send a guard at him and the 6-foot-8, 250-pounder simply passes over the top to that person’s man, as he did in finding Gibson for two 3-pointers and Williams for one in the fourth quar-ter. Try to send a big man and he hits a cutter, which is what happened when Varejao converted a three-point play.

Play him straight up, which is what Orlando attempted to do for long stretches with 6-6, 215-pound Mickael Pietrus, and James shoots a jumper, drives to the hole or draws fouls.

“We didn’t do anything tricky,” Brown said. “We just gave him the ball right there at what we call ‘The Nail’ and said, ‘Get us some good looks, Big Fella.’

“We just felt that would be open with the way they were trying to double-team LeBron. It gave him an opportunity to make plays minus the double-team. If they chose to double, then he was going to pass the ball. We just had to have guys on the perimeter make wide-open shots.”

There is no easy way for Orlando to counter the play. The Magic can try to deny James the ball, but he’s just too big, fast and strong. The best Orlando can really hope for in that regard is to force James to catch the ball a few feet beyond the 3-point arc, so at least he has to dribble in order to get into serious attack position.

The Magic can also hope Williams, who was 6-of-27 on 3-pointers through the first four games of the series, and Gibson, who was a complete non-factor in Games 1, 2 and 3, don’t continue to make shots.

In addition, Orlando has Defensive Player of the Year Howard to protect the inte-rior and contest shots, but relying on him too much runs the risk of serious foul trouble. Howard, who has fouled out three times and has been whistled 27 times overall in the series, picked up his fifth personal in Game 5 on a James drive midway through the fourth quarter and his sixth with 2:22 to go.

Both resulted in three-point plays for James, who found a way to get his body into Howard’s before the 6-11, 265-pounder could get into good position to block or alter his shot.

“If you allow a guy like that to get space, he is able to jump and create and block shots,” James said. “That’s how he gets a lot of his weak-side blocks, com-ing across and blocking shots. If you don’t give him much space, if you hit him, make contact with him, it’s tough for a guy like that to get off the court.”

In his press conference after Game 5, Van Gundy had already started com-plaining about James, who was 15-of-19 at the line, getting all the calls. It’s a ploy used by almost every coach in every playoff series, but the Cavaliers will continue to ride James in Game 6.

“That’s what great players do,” Brown said. “Great players put the team on their back and everybody steps up.

“He’s showing confidence in his teammates. He’s encouraging them. He’s talking strategy offensively. He’s talking strategy defensively. Just his mental awareness, whether it’s on the floor during the game or in the huddle, is off the charts. We have to continue to have that from him