Cap and Trade vote on Friday

[Riot]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8152579.stm

Of course, what they are doing is completely futile and silly, as long as China doesn't join their efforts.

Edit: and I wanted to include this, too: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/629/629/7056601.stm

"State of the Planet, in graphics: Globally human populations are growing, trade is increasing, and living standards are rising for many. But, according to the UN's latest Global Environment Outlook report, long-term problems including climate change, pollution, access to clean water, and the threat of mass extinctions are being met with "a remarkable lack of urgency".

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

Or they get their info from not-very-accurate third-grade-level news media sound bites. Or were schooled in Texas, out of textbooks fitting the Texas School Board criteria?

Just trying to be “impeccable with your word(s).” Not the voices in my head.

Exactly. Like Sarah Palin writing an op-ed the other day in the Washington Post, where she tries to talk about cap and trade (she used to be 'for' it, now she's 'against' it, apparently) and energy, yet she completely fails to even mention why those subjects need to be talked about - climate change.

I wonder what Palin thinks the reason is, why towns in her state of Alaska have had to permanently move because the permafrost is gone?

Wonder if Palin wonders why the permafrost is gone?

Naw. Probably not.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

The subject of this post is Cap and Trade not Global Warming so anyone, explain how taxing everything American while NOTHING foreign will reduce carbon output and not make it worse?

The problem is we are in a situation where the majority of the oil and natural gas in the world has been consumed by Americans for a long time. China and India are now catching up to where we were 20 years ago and if they follow the same road that we did they will dwarf our level of consumption which in turn will drive up prices, deplete resources, (and if you want to believe, continue global warming). If we were to access all the oil at our disposal and stop importing it would last us less than 5 years. We need to hold onto those strategic resources while we develop alternative energy. As the leaders of the world we can't wait for other people to come up with these solutions. And if we are going to put pressure on China and India to join us in this effort then we sure as hell had better already be setting an example as well as providing potential solutions.

I'm not naive enough to believe that I understand all the intricacies of Cap and Trade to fully understand the strengths and weaknesses of it. What I do believe is that everything I said in the first paragraph is true. If it means the taxpayers are investing in the future then I am willing as a patriotic American to make that investment. If others aren't willing then I can understand their position. I just wish more people could base their decision on what they believe and not on whether John McCain or Barack Obama is pushing the idea.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

The problem is we are in a situation where the majority of the oil and natural gas in the world has been consumed by Americans for a long time. China and India are now catching up to where we were 20 years ago and if they follow the same road that we did they will dwarf our level of consumption which in turn will drive up prices, deplete resources, (and if you want to believe, continue global warming). If we were to access all the oil at our disposal and stop importing it would last us less than 5 years. We need to hold onto those strategic resources while we develop alternative energy. As the leaders of the world we can't wait for other people to come up with these solutions. And if we are going to put pressure on China and India to join us in this effort then we sure as hell had better already be setting an example as well as providing potential solutions.

I'm not naive enough to believe that I understand all the intricacies of Cap and Trade to fully understand the strengths and weaknesses of it. What I do believe is that everything I said in the first paragraph is true. If it means the taxpayers are investing in the future then I am willing as a patriotic American to make that investment. If others aren't willing then I can understand their position. I just wish more people could base their decision on what they believe and not on whether John McCain or Barack Obama is pushing the idea.

good post. bad example.

this is from mccain's wikipedia bio:

"In October 2003, McCain and Lieberman co-sponsored the Climate Stewardship Act that would have introduced a cap and trade system aimed at returning greenhouse gas emissions to 2000 levels; the bill was defeated with 55 votes to 43 in the Senate.[165] They reintroduced modified versions of the Act two additional times, most recently in January 2007 with the co-sponsorship of Barack Obama, among others.[166]"

john mccain thinks. not everything he does is knee jerk partisan.

you need to pick a dumber republican. i'd give an example but at this point just spin the wheel again and you'll probably hit a winner.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

good post. bad example.

this is from mccain's wikipedia bio:

"In October 2003, McCain and Lieberman co-sponsored the Climate Stewardship Act that would have introduced a cap and trade system aimed at returning greenhouse gas emissions to 2000 levels; the bill was defeated with 55 votes to 43 in the Senate.[165] They reintroduced modified versions of the Act two additional times, most recently in January 2007 with the co-sponsorship of Barack Obama, among others.[166]"

john mccain thinks. not everything he does is knee jerk partisan.

you need to pick a dumber republican. i'd give an example but at this point just spin the wheel again and you'll probably hit a winner.

Well I was kinda thinking McCain cause had he won the election he might have pushed for the same sort of thing and various people would be on the exact opposite side of the argument.

It would be hilarious to have an alternate universe where McCain won and then post Arlington Jim's posts from that universe over here.

[SOREHOOF]

This is the alternate universe. I wanna go home.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GBBob

I think it's fair to say that Liberal and Bush are easily interchanged with Republican and Obama. There is no more unbending group that hard core conservatives...they may be "right" on some stuff, but I never hear they are wrong, unsure or bending on anything. It's attack mode 24/7 and everyone else is a moron.

There may be some truth to this however on this topic liberals like Riot (yes you are a liberal) seem to think that they can't possibly be wrong. And if anyone disagrees with them they are either a brainwashed conservative that does not "believe" in science or is simply getting all of their info from biased scientists that are on the Fox network payroll.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

The problem is we are in a situation where the majority of the oil and natural gas in the world has been consumed by Americans for a long time. China and India are now catching up to where we were 20 years ago and if they follow the same road that we did they will dwarf our level of consumption which in turn will drive up prices, deplete resources, (and if you want to believe, continue global warming). If we were to access all the oil at our disposal and stop importing it would last us less than 5 years. We need to hold onto those strategic resources while we develop alternative energy. As the leaders of the world we can't wait for other people to come up with these solutions. And if we are going to put pressure on China and India to join us in this effort then we sure as hell had better already be setting an example as well as providing potential solutions.

I'm not naive enough to believe that I understand all the intricacies of Cap and Trade to fully understand the strengths and weaknesses of it. What I do believe is that everything I said in the first paragraph is true. If it means the taxpayers are investing in the future then I am willing as a patriotic American to make that investment. If others aren't willing then I can understand their position. I just wish more people could base their decision on what they believe and not on whether John McCain or Barack Obama is pushing the idea.

Please post links to your sources of information. You are very naive if you think cap and trade has anything to do with the "threat" of climate change.

[pgiaco]

Originally Posted by Riot

No. If you disagree that climate change (not man-made climate change) is occuring, you're probably about 10-15 years behind the rest of the world, have the ability to completely ignore overwhelming reams of repeatedly validated data, and probably still believe the earth is flat.

Never said I disagree the climate is changing. I think that's been happening for as long as the Earth's been around. I disagree with the man made part.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Riot

Exactly. Like Sarah Palin writing an op-ed the other day in the Washington Post, where she tries to talk about cap and trade (she used to be 'for' it, now she's 'against' it, apparently) and energy, yet she completely fails to even mention why those subjects need to be talked about - climate change.

I wonder what Palin thinks the reason is, why towns in her state of Alaska have had to permanently move because the permafrost is gone?

Wonder if Palin wonders why the permafrost is gone?

Naw. Probably not.

you completely missed my point as usual.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Please post links to your sources of information. You are very naive if you think cap and trade has anything to do with the "threat" of climate change.

What do you need links for? That more people in China and India are buying their own automobiles? That we have a better chance of getting China and India to reduce emissions if we can provide the solution? Do you also need proof that the sun still exists even when it goes behind a cloud? If you are looking for a source that our oil reserves would be gone in 5 years if we stopped importing you can find that data easily enough in Chapter 5 of Bush's National Energy Policy by adding their estimates together and then relating it to our annual consumption.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

If you are looking for a source that our oil reserves would be gone in 5 years if we stopped importing you can find that data easily enough in Chapter 5 of Bush's National Energy Policy by adding their estimates together and then relating it to our annual consumption.

The U.S. is sitting on the world's largest, untapped oil reserves -- reservoirs which energy experts know exist, but which have not yet been tapped and may not be attainable with current technology. In fact, such untapped reserves are estimated at about 2.3 trillion barrels, nearly three times more than the reserves held by Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) nations and sufficient to meet 300 years of demand -- at today's levels -- for auto, truck, aircraft, heating and industrial fuel, without importing a single barrel of oil.

per Kiplinger 6/30/08

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

The U.S. is sitting on the world's largest, untapped oil reserves -- reservoirs which energy experts know exist, but which have not yet been tapped and may not be attainable with current technology. In fact, such untapped reserves are estimated at about 2.3 trillion barrels, nearly three times more than the reserves held by Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) nations and sufficient to meet 300 years of demand -- at today's levels -- for auto, truck, aircraft, heating and industrial fuel, without importing a single barrel of oil.

per Kiplinger 6/30/08

Estimates of what we can actually get to place the number more around 39 billion barrels. So basically if a world war broke and we were suddenly cut off from being able to import oil we would exhaust our oil supplies in five years. Perhaps in five years we could find ways to access some of the currently unattainable oil but that isn't something I want to count on. Let's hold off on "drill baby drill" until we are sure we can access even a quarter of the oil that we believe to be out there. And if in the meantime we can develop more renewable sources as well then we'll be able to stretch it for even longer and have alternatives when it finally does all run out.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Estimates of what we can actually get to place the number more around 39 billion barrels. So basically if a world war broke and we were suddenly cut off from being able to import oil we would exhaust our oil supplies in five years. Perhaps in five years we could find ways to access some of the currently unattainable oil but that isn't something I want to count on. Let's hold off on "drill baby drill" until we are sure we can access even a quarter of the oil that we believe to be out there. And if in the meantime we can develop more renewable sources as well then we'll be able to stretch it for even longer and have alternatives when it finally does all run out.

How about letting American Oil companies drill at their own expense w/either a leasing or profit share agreement on U.S. 'protected lands' with all money collected going to development of renewable resources? And end all this nonsense of Cap and Trade?

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

How about letting American Oil companies drill at their own expense w/either a leasing or profit share agreement on U.S. 'protected lands' with all money collected going to development of renewable resources? And end all this nonsense of Cap and Trade?

That doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

What do you need links for? That more people in China and India are buying their own automobiles? That we have a better chance of getting China and India to reduce emissions if we can provide the solution? Do you also need proof that the sun still exists even when it goes behind a cloud? If you are looking for a source that our oil reserves would be gone in 5 years if we stopped importing you can find that data easily enough in Chapter 5 of Bush's National Energy Policy by adding their estimates together and then relating it to our annual consumption.

You made some statements that I would love to see data on. You basically called me a liar and demanded that I post links in another thread (which I did) yet you see no need to provide links for your outlandish statements? I dont think China and India give a damn about what we do or dont do on emissions.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

you completely missed my point as usual.

No, I just ignored it

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

There may be some truth to this however on this topic liberals like Riot (yes you are a liberal) seem to think that they can't possibly be wrong. And if anyone disagrees with them they are either a brainwashed conservative that does not "believe" in science or is simply getting all of their info from biased scientists that are on the Fox network payroll.

LOL - not according to what I believe politically. You're just incensed I (or anyone) likes Obama, and you think "liberal" is a dirty word

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Riot

LOL - not according to what I believe politically. You're just incensed I (or anyone) likes Obama, and you think "liberal" is a dirty word

the first day you thought Jimmy Carter had a deep understanding of 'anything' was the day you popped your liberal cherry.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

the first day you thought Jimmy Carter had a deep understanding of 'anything' was the day you popped your liberal cherry.

Playboy?