Modification of Geneva Conventions

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I wouldn't say "no better, no worse." Are you going to tell me you would have just as much fear of being captured by our army as you would of being captured by Al Qadea? Come on! There is no limit to what Al Qadea may do to you. They may tear you apart limb by limb. They may give you the worst imaginable torture and then cut your head off. I don't think that is the case with what our guys would do to you. Don't get me wrong. They would make your life miserable and they may scare you half to death, but there is still a limit as to what they will do to you. They're not going to kill you because if they do they might go to jail. Some of our soldiers are in big trouble right now for killing prisoners and even civilians.

In one sentence you are saying that "they (implying our soldiers) are not going to kill you" but in the next sentence you are saying that our soldiers are in "big trouble for killing prisoners and even civilians". Obviously, our soldiers have killed and if i were the enemy i would be terrified. You just said it yourself.

Now, as far as the limits as to what CIA interrogators will do, how would anyone really know? How would you know? It has been proven that they abduct terrorist suspects and take them to parts unknown. How do you know what is done to them? Do you really think the geneva convention is followed? Do you think captured enemy soldiers with any kind of knowledge arent killed during interrogation at times?

You got to get real Rupert. I applaud your faith in the altruistic nature of the US military but youve got to get real.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

In one sentence you are saying that "they (implying our soldiers) are not going to kill you" but in the next sentence you are saying that our soldiers are in "big trouble for killing prisoners and even civilians". Obviously, our soldiers have killed and if i were the enemy i would be terrified. You just said it yourself.

Now, as far as the limits as to what CIA interrogators will do, how would anyone really know? How would you know? It has been proven that they abduct terrorist suspects and take them to parts unknown. How do you know what is done to them? Do you really think the geneva convention is followed? Do you think captured enemy soldiers with any kind of knowledge arent killed during interrogation at times?

You got to get real Rupert. I applaud your faith in the altruistic nature of the US military but youve got to get real.

There will always be a few bad apples. The soldiers who killed people are in a lot of trouble. If you want to think that we're as bad as Al Qadea, then you need to get real.

I wonder how many people in the administration and Congress talked to international legal experts to get a real feel for the complexity of the issue. Other countries experts asked for opinions?

I have a bad feeling the above was not done thoroughly. This is a rather important issue. Really need to thoroughly think this one thru. Jumpin to fast imo. But maybe alot more thought behind the scenes went on... I hope.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

There will always be a few bad apples. The soldiers who killed people are in a lot of trouble. If you want to think that we're as bad as Al Qadea, then you need to get real.

What is "as bad as Al Qadea"? LOL. How would you know either way? Killing suspects during interrogation is as bad as it gets but its going to happen. Do you have any intimate knowledge of these situations?

As far as the lengths US intelligence will go to glean information, there are few that will take it further. Believe what you read in the papers or from the politicians if you want.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I wonder how many people in the administration and Congress talked to international legal experts to get a real feel for the complexity of the issue. Other countries experts asked for opinions?

I have a bad feeling the above was not done thoroughly. This is a rather important issue. Really need to thoroughly think this one thru. Jumpin to fast imo. But maybe alot more thought behind the scenes went on... I hope.

Now why would anyone in the Bush administration bother to talk to any legal experts? He appeals to a "higher father," remember? And that's worked out so very well in Iraq, hasn't it? I wonder what God told him about the particulars of the Geneva convention.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

What is "as bad as Al Qadea"? LOL. How would you know either way? Killing suspects during interrogation is as bad as it gets but its going to happen. Do you have any intimate knowledge of these situations?

As far as the lengths US intelligence will go to glean information, there are few that will take it further. Believe what you read in the papers or from the politicians if you want.

You're one of these guys that basically thinks there are no bad guys in the world. If a gang member shoots someone that's not so bad. Police shoot people sometimes too. If guys fly planes into the World Trade Center, that's not that bad. Our government does stuff just as bad.

Talking to you is a waste of time. You don't see any difference between right and wrong. I'm not saying that our government has never done anything wrong. I'm not saying that their aren't any bad cops out there. I'm not saying that at all. But if you can't see any difference between the US and Al Qadea, then I give up. And if you think the police are just as bad as gangmembers, then I give up. I'm sure that's what you think. That seems to be your mentality.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

You're one of these guys that basically thinks there are no bad guys in the world. If a gang member shoots someone that's not so bad. Police shoot people sometimes too. If guys fly planes into the World Trade Center, that's not that bad. Our government does stuff just as bad.

Talking to you is a waste of time. You don't see any difference between right and wrong. I'm not saying that our government has never done anything wrong. I'm not saying that their aren't any bad cops out there. I'm not saying that at all. But if you can't see any difference between the US and Al Qadea, then I give up. And if you think the police are just as bad as gangmembers, then I give up. I'm sure that's what you think. That seems to be your mentality.

Rupert-

You are the one that are saying these things, not me. Why is everything so black and white with the myopic masses? Who brought up gangmembers? What are you even talking about?

Of course there is a difference between the US and Al Qadea. Who ever said there wasnt? But if you are talking about whether or not US intelligence would kill a prisoner to glean information, then anyone that has any common sense and has any knowledge of the intelligence community would know that this has gone on for years. Thats all im saying. And its not just the US, its every country in the world.

I think it funny when people buy into this whole "good vs. evil" thing. It was labeled as such in the cold war and its labeled as such with any country that dares defy the US. Does it make one less patriotic to question the motives of some of the people that run our government? Are they holy prophets or something? Who is to say that Bush/cheney arent evil, selfish men? Who is to say that they dont truly believe that what they are doing is right? As a citizen of this country, i have every right to question it one way or the other.

I choose to keep an open mind one way or the other. The US has done plenty of great things for this world but there have been some bad things as well. I dont see things as black and white, as good vs. evil. Our "good" side does bad things too. Its the way of the world Rupert.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Rupert-

You are the one that are saying these things, not me. Why is everything so black and white with the myopic masses? Who brought up gangmembers? What are you even talking about?

Of course there is a difference between the US and Al Qadea. Who ever said there wasnt? But if you are talking about whether or not US intelligence would kill a prisoner to glean information, then anyone that has any common sense and has any knowledge of the intelligence community would know that this has gone on for years. Thats all im saying. And its not just the US, its every country in the world.

I think it funny when people buy into this whole "good vs. evil" thing. It was labeled as such in the cold war and its labeled as such with any country that dares defy the US. Does it make one less patriotic to question the motives of some of the people that run our government? Are they holy prophets or something? Who is to say that Bush/cheney arent evil, selfish men? Who is to say that they dont truly believe that what they are doing is right? As a citizen of this country, i have every right to question it one way or the other.

I choose to keep an open mind one way or the other. The US has done plenty of great things for this world but there have been some bad things as well. I dont see things as black and white, as good vs. evil. Our "good" side does bad things too. Its the way of the world Rupert.

That's true, but only YOU can decide which side you want to believe in. You have to learn to take the bad with the good, but you gotta pick which one you're going to follow. IMO, your reasoning is like picking two horses to win a race. You can't ride two donkeys with one ass. Just my two cents.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Rupert-

You are the one that are saying these things, not me. Why is everything so black and white with the myopic masses? Who brought up gangmembers? What are you even talking about?

Of course there is a difference between the US and Al Qadea. Who ever said there wasnt? But if you are talking about whether or not US intelligence would kill a prisoner to glean information, then anyone that has any common sense and has any knowledge of the intelligence community would know that this has gone on for years. Thats all im saying. And its not just the US, its every country in the world.

I think it funny when people buy into this whole "good vs. evil" thing. It was labeled as such in the cold war and its labeled as such with any country that dares defy the US. Does it make one less patriotic to question the motives of some of the people that run our government? Are they holy prophets or something? Who is to say that Bush/cheney arent evil, selfish men? Who is to say that they dont truly believe that what they are doing is right? As a citizen of this country, i have every right to question it one way or the other.

I choose to keep an open mind one way or the other. The US has done plenty of great things for this world but there have been some bad things as well. I dont see things as black and white, as good vs. evil. Our "good" side does bad things too. Its the way of the world Rupert.

I'm not saying that you specifically said that the US and Al Qadea are equal. I'm not saying that you specifically said that cops are just as bad as gangmembers. But you are basically always defending the bad guys and making excuses for them. You say things like "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."

I'm not saying that there aren't two sides to every story, there are. But that doesn't mean that there is no "right" and no "wrong". If a guy murders his wife, I'm sure he had a reason. I'm sure he has his side to the story. In a case like that, I'm not saying that the guy is "all bad" and his wife was "all good". What I am saying is that there was no excuse for the guy killing his wife even if she was not a very nice person. The guy was 100% wrong for killing her and the guys hould go to jail for life. Part of the story is "black and white".

That's where I differ from you. You seem to think that nothing is "black and white". Your thinking is just as simplistic as someone who thinks that everything is black and white.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Rupert-

You are the one that are saying these things, not me. Why is everything so black and white with the myopic masses? Who brought up gangmembers? What are you even talking about?

Of course there is a difference between the US and Al Qadea. Who ever said there wasnt? But if you are talking about whether or not US intelligence would kill a prisoner to glean information, then anyone that has any common sense and has any knowledge of the intelligence community would know that this has gone on for years. Thats all im saying. And its not just the US, its every country in the world.

I think it funny when people buy into this whole "good vs. evil" thing. It was labeled as such in the cold war and its labeled as such with any country that dares defy the US. Does it make one less patriotic to question the motives of some of the people that run our government? Are they holy prophets or something? Who is to say that Bush/cheney arent evil, selfish men? Who is to say that they dont truly believe that what they are doing is right? As a citizen of this country, i have every right to question it one way or the other.

I choose to keep an open mind one way or the other. The US has done plenty of great things for this world but there have been some bad things as well. I dont see things as black and white, as good vs. evil. Our "good" side does bad things too. Its the way of the world Rupert.

OH, so you keep an open mind as to who you support here?
Torture them, mutilate them. whatever. Doesn't bother me one bit, make me feel better if we did.
If we get info from just one of em that saves the lives of the people I support, the citizens of the USA, then its well worth it.
You seem to be forgetting something here, or realize it yet don't support the USA.
We didn't start this war in any way shape or form.
A bunch of murderous cowards attacked and killed 5000 innocent US Citizens on our soil.
Its no different than what the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor and the only solution, like with the Japanese, is to bring them to their knees and then allow them to rebuild as a non threat to the world.
Sorry, but any people who worship a God who says to murder innocent people deserve a lot more than waterboarding.

[Downthestretch55]

This thread has taken some interesting twists and turns.
Some "debating techniques", such as reframing the opposing person's words are clearly evident. It's called "implication", and can go on and on until corrected.
It goes like this..."This is what I thought you said, correct me if I'm wrong."
When, in reality, none such was said.

Anyway, back to the original point of the thread so as to not shed more light on "debating techniques"....

Now that Senators McCain, Warner, and Graham (all Republicans) have voiced concern over demands for clarification by President G. Bush regarding Common Article 3 of the Geneva Accords, I concur with Sen. McCain in that "The United States should demonstrate the higher moral ground."
In my view, we will lose credibility by stooping to the treatment of others regarding "prisoners of war".
I'll remind you, Senator McCain was held as a prisoner of war by the North Vietnamese for almost seven years. Their treatment of pow's was despicable,
and they labeled them as "enemy combatants" and "terrorists".

[Downthestretch55]

From Fox News...
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2006Sep...rorism,00.html

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

This thread has taken some interesting twists and turns.
Some "debating techniques", such as reframing the opposing person's words are clearly evident. It's called "implication", and can go on and on until corrected.
It goes like this..."This is what I thought you said, correct me if I'm wrong."
When, in reality, none such was said.

Anyway, back to the original point of the thread so as to not shed more light on "debating techniques"....

Now that Senators McCain, Warner, and Graham (all Republicans) have voiced concern over demands for clarification by President G. Bush regarding Common Article 3 of the Geneva Accords, I concur with Sen. McCain in that "The United States should demonstrate the higher moral ground."
In my view, we will lose credibility by stooping to the treatment of others regarding "prisoners of war".
I'll remind you, Senator McCain was held as a prisoner of war by the North Vietnamese for almost seven years. Their treatment of pow's was despicable,
and they labeled them as "enemy combatants" and "terrorists".

It has nothing to do with a"debating technique". Dalakhani can correct me if I am misinterpreting his beliefs in any way. From reading his posts, his position appears to be that since no side is "all good" and no side is "all evil" then that means that there is no real right or wrong and everyihng is a grey area. If that is not his position, then he can say so and he can give some specific examples of things that are "black and white."

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

It has nothing to do with a"debating technique". Dalakhani can correct me if I am misinterpreting his beliefs in any way. From reading his posts, his position appears to be that since no side is "all good" and no side is "all evil" then that means that there is no real right or wrong and everyihng is a grey area. If that is not his position, then he can say so and he can give some specific examples of things that are "black and white."

I think a lot of what i have said is taken and run with without any real interpretation. Perhaps it is my lack of command of the language. Never did i say that i disagree with what US intelligence had to do. I pretty much said that when i said "all is fair in love and war". My only point is that the US isnt above all of the things we accuse all of the other countries of.

This black and white thing is funny to me though. It shows how little people know about the history of the region. Terrorism is a terrible thing and the act of terrorizing is truly an evil thing. But what has led to the current situation is what i mean when i say that there is grey area.

The war in Iraq was unjust. Thus, the thousands of innocent civilians that died were wrongly killed. Could that be deemed as an act of terrorism? Depends on which way you look at it. Thats what i meant when i said "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". We view our soldiers over there as fighting for the freedom of the iraqi people. Many Arabs feel that those same soldiers are oppressive. Who is right or wrong? It depends on which way you see it.

Does that make things any clearer?

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

It has nothing to do with a"debating technique". Dalakhani can correct me if I am misinterpreting his beliefs in any way. From reading his posts, his position appears to be that since no side is "all good" and no side is "all evil" then that means that there is no real right or wrong and everyihng is a grey area. If that is not his position, then he can say so and he can give some specific examples of things that are "black and white."

Rupert,
Now really!!!
Where did I ever mention YOUR debating technique?
Did I mention anyone's name?

My post was an attempt to bring this thread back to the topic I originally posed. That should be obvious.
DTS

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

What is "as bad as Al Qadea"? LOL. How would you know either way? Killing suspects during interrogation is as bad as it gets but its going to happen. Do you have any intimate knowledge of these situations?

As far as the lengths US intelligence will go to glean information, there are few that will take it further. Believe what you read in the papers or from the politicians if you want.

Well,gee...the televised beheadings should give us a clue! You're gonna get splinters from sitting on the fence.

[Downthestretch55]

Though I know some hate to read anything that i post from Commondreams, I think this has informative merit.
As Cajun stated on another thread, read it with an open mind.
If you decide not to, fine with me.
Don't attack me for what the authors' state, refute their premises.



Closed minds=ignorant minds..IMHO.
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0916-20.htm

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

Well,gee...the televised beheadings should give us a clue! You're gonna get splinters from sitting on the fence.

Yeah, and the fact that it is on television is about the only difference. You are communicating from an uninformed position.

No one is sitting on any fence genius. My only point and it has been through the entire thread is that US intelligence does the same types of things as the enemy. Thats all.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Yeah, and the fact that it is on television is about the only difference. You are communicating from an uninformed position.

No one is sitting on any fence genius. My only point and it has been through the entire thread is that US intelligence does the same types of things as the enemy. Thats all.

And what is your intimate source? I refer back to post #34 for the fence -sitting,genius!

[timmgirvan]

Wow..that was so mature...wasn't that the bell to come back from recess?