Dubai Carnival 2010 Discussion

[The Bid]

All due respect it needs to be ran on and groomed to significantly test it. All the artificials breakdown, tapeta, whether it's in Dubai or on mars will do the same.

We have had 3-4 years of that junk over here. Horses still Breakdown at the same rate. Add to the equation it negates all the speed we have bred into our horses it's pretty comical it was ever installed. Curlin is lucky he was in Dubai while it was dirt, otherwise some 9 year old euro turf horse would be ripping his head off on "dirt"

I'm all against artificial surfaces. It does absolutely nothing but add another useless vAriable to the game.

[brockguy]

As much as I like Presvis, surely the race won't suit him tomorrow? Add in the fact that he won't be near 100% and he is one of the worst odds on shots I've seen! If there is a race in Zulu Chief, this is it!!

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by The Bid

All due respect it needs to be ran on and groomed to significantly test it. All the artificials breakdown, tapeta, whether it's in Dubai or on mars will do the same.

We have had 3-4 years of that junk over here. Horses still Breakdown at the same rate. Add to the equation it negates all the speed we have bred into our horses it's pretty comical it was ever installed. Curlin is lucky he was in Dubai while it was dirt, otherwise some 9 year old euro turf horse would be ripping his head off on "dirt"

I'm all against artificial surfaces. It does absolutely nothing but add another useless vAriable to the game.

Horses do NOT break down at the same rate. I'm tired of having the same argument, it's been proven time and time again that it is a safer surface in all weather conditions.

Michael Dickenson has changed the tapeta surface that is at Meydan to make sure it will stand the climate. It is the same mix that has been at Godolphin's training centre over there (which still looks as good as new) the only slight difference I believe is the wax, which is specifically designed to cope with high temperatures. This wax has not been used on any other Tapeta surface so far, but significant testing has been carried out.

Yes, I'd prefer to see a surface, which brings turf and dirt horses closer together, but that the moment, I think it is almost impossible given that there is such a difference between the different types of horses.

I hear a lot of people in America moaning about biases and the state of the surface altogether. Fact is, if you want the tracks to be speed favouring or closer friendly, you can prepare them accordingly. There isn't enough preparation at the AW tracks in the States, and many of them did not increase drainage because of the extra cost - that is their problem. The AW tracks over here have done a magnificent job, breakdowns are very, very rare, kickback is minimal and most of all, it's fair, very fair. This is achieved by preparing the tracks and 'working' on them to produce the ideal, safe, surface.

May I suggest that the reason for the breakdowns in America is due to the weakness of the breed and the reliance of pain relieving substances and other such drugs and these breakdowns would have happened on any surface, the statistics certainly point to that as North America is the only country to have had any kind of injury related problems on synthetic tracks.

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by brockguy

As much as I like Presvis, surely the race won't suit him tomorrow? Add in the fact that he won't be near 100% and he is one of the worst odds on shots I've seen! If there is a race in Zulu Chief, this is it!!

I agree, mate. This would seem like a perfect prep run to me and wouldn't surprise me to see him given a very easy time.

I think Ajtebi will control things from the front and turn things into a sprint, which I don't think will suit Presvis or Zulu Chief (who might just be outclassed).

[The Bid]

No chance to dance.

We breed these horses for speed here, and artificial surfaces takes speed totally out of the equation

As for Mike Dickenson, what did he ever do? He couldnt keep a horse sound more than 6 races a season training over that bullshit track, Tapeta. If he was such a good trainer he would have stuck with that instead of running a racket and selling it to all the morons involved in racing as revolutionary surface. Im not knocking the guy for getting over on the entire industry, but to say his track is safer, and there is conslusive evidence its safer, that is ridiculous.

Tapeta is a turf substitute surface. It trains like turf, its ran like turf, the races shake out like turf. Euros like it because the grass horses handle it. Im happy they handle it. The problem is we run on dirt here in the states. It was counterproductive for our industry to install any synthetic surface. It works in Europe because the horses transition from the turf to the plastic. I love grass racing, I love dirt racing, its natural either way. Any synthetic surface used for racing is obscene and defies logic, and history. Not to mention it has no positive impact on the soundness of horses

Preperation on these tracks is supposed to be minimal, it takes an intensive effort to keep them raceworthy.

Kickback on these surfaces is ridiculous, the worst I have ever seen. Horses will not tuck in, thats why horses are coming down the middle of the course, they do not want their eyeballs knocked out.

You may suggest anything you want with our breeding program, it is greatly flawed, our entire industry is flawed. However, adding paper mache to the mix certianly did not help matters.

What we are talking about here is some of the South American horses, or traditional dirt horses handling Tapeta in Dubai. They will not

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by The Bid

Took them a couple seasons to start falling apart ocer here pat. They were all great, all the morons here loved them. Now all the idiots are crying about them.

As for the south American dirt courses...... They aren't the best but they are "traditional" dirt. A traditional dirt horse simply will not handle tapeta. I'm sure it's great for the carnival because more European horses can transition, possibly hold their form on tapeta. Whereas on the dirt they would stink up the joint

I'm a huge fan of international racing. I love seeing all the good horses converge, but essentially this is a turf festival

I think it is WAYYYYYYY too soon to tell, overall. I don't know why Barton is so livid. Their barn wasn't hot on El Amarillista and Naval Officer went on turf. Their only starter last week was a relative longshot in Al Samha.

Midshipman didn't handle the Tapeta? I think he was a bit short and might have been craving the lasix in the final furlong. He seemed to get over it fine, in my eye...and I lost a bunch of multi-race bets because he failed...but failure is an overstatement. He won the Breeders' Cup Juvenile over synthetic...so he's a dirt horse?

THERE IS NO KICKBACK ON THIS SURFACE, NONE. CAPS INTENDED.

There is something flying on this board right now, but it isn't Tapeta.

This track has been relatively even through the 14 races held on it thus far...with very few noticable, sustainable bias patterns.

[chucklestheclown]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

Horses do NOT break down at the same rate. I'm tired of having the same argument, it's been proven time and time again that it is a safer surface in all weather conditions.

Michael Dickenson has changed the tapeta surface that is at Meydan to make sure it will stand the climate. It is the same mix that has been at Godolphin's training centre over there (which still looks as good as new) the only slight difference I believe is the wax, which is specifically designed to cope with high temperatures. This wax has not been used on any other Tapeta surface so far, but significant testing has been carried out.

Yes, I'd prefer to see a surface, which brings turf and dirt horses closer together, but that the moment, I think it is almost impossible given that there is such a difference between the different types of horses.

I hear a lot of people in America moaning about biases and the state of the surface altogether. Fact is, if you want the tracks to be speed favouring or closer friendly, you can prepare them accordingly. There isn't enough preparation at the AW tracks in the States, and many of them did not increase drainage because of the extra cost - that is their problem. The AW tracks over here have done a magnificent job, breakdowns are very, very rare, kickback is minimal and most of all, it's fair, very fair. This is achieved by preparing the tracks and 'working' on them to produce the ideal, safe, surface.

May I suggest that the reason for the breakdowns in America is due to the weakness of the breed and the reliance of pain relieving substances and other such drugs and these breakdowns would have happened on any surface, the statistics certainly point to that as North America is the only country to have had any kind of injury related problems on synthetic tracks.

IMO people who constantly question all synthetics and/or carp on them are really annoying. Either play them or admit you do not know how to handicap and leave everyone else alone. King of Rome is a MONSTER!!!

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by The Bid

No chance to dance.

We breed these horses for speed here, and artificial surfaces takes speed totally out of the equation

As for Mike Dickenson, what did he ever do? He couldnt keep a horse sound more than 6 races a season training over that bullshit track, Tapeta. If he was such a good trainer he would have stuck with that instead of running a racket and selling it to all the morons involved in racing as revolutionary surface. Im not knocking the guy for getting over on the entire industry, but to say his track is safer, and there is conslusive evidence its safer, that is ridiculous.

Tapeta is a turf substitute surface. It trains like turf, its ran like turf, the races shake out like turf. Euros like it because the grass horses handle it. Im happy they handle it. The problem is we run on dirt here in the states. It was counterproductive for our industry to install any synthetic surface. It works in Europe because the horses transition from the turf to the plastic. I love grass racing, I love dirt racing, its natural either way. Any synthetic surface used for racing is obscene and defies logic, and history. Not to mention it has no positive impact on the soundness of horses

Preperation on these tracks is supposed to be minimal, it takes an intensive effort to keep them raceworthy.

Kickback on these surfaces is ridiculous, the worst I have ever seen. Horses will not tuck in, thats why horses are coming down the middle of the course, they do not want their eyeballs knocked out.

You may suggest anything you want with our breeding program, it is greatly flawed, our entire industry is flawed. However, adding paper mache to the mix certianly did not help matters.

What we are talking about here is some of the South American horses, or traditional dirt horses handling Tapeta in Dubai. They will not

You're points basically confirm my intial thoughts. How can the same surface that we use here and in Dubai (polytrack and Tapeta) act completely different to how they do there?

There can only be one reason, and that is because how the tracks are prepared and managed.

I've never seen either polytrack or tapeta throw up much/if any kickback, and I've been watching AW racing for many years now.

Doesn't that suggest to you, that where the kickback is bad, the track officials are doing something wrong?

AW tracks were NEVER sold as minimal preparation - The Americans who decided to test it assumed that, and now are blaming the surface. There is a phrase we have here - "bad workman always blame their tools"

There have been reports written by many different racing professionals who all say that AW surfaces are by far the safest surface for a horse to race on, given their spounge-like feel with no jar, but at the same time only gets as deep as it needs to be. We've never had problems (injury-wise) with it, and any breakdowns, injuries there have been have not been linked to the surface itself. Trainers here say they can run horses more regularly on the synthetics as it doesn't take as much out of them and they never come back sore like many of the younger horses do, when encountering a much faster/harder track.

I don't want to argue, because unlike many, you do appreciate turf racing. Many of the moaners are just doing so because they dislike turf racing.

But I do like to point out that across the pond, the surface is always to blame, and not those preparing it for racing, and given the characteristics of the exact same surface are so different on one side of the Atlantic to the other, to me it's obvious that the problem lies solely with how the surface is prepared rather than the surface itself.

Polytrack especially can be prepared for speed. When it was still new as a racecourse surface at here, regularly biases would change, while the track management team got to learn about it. One meeting the speed would be massively favoured, the next it was the hold up horses who were favoured, but over time they found the ideal speed of the track, which is seeminly working out to be fair to both types of runners - and the statistics prove that.

[PatCummings]

Polytrack at Woodbine and Turfway produces AMAZING amounts of kickback. The Tapeta is the only surface I've seen that, across the board, or oceans, is even in its lack of kickback.

[NoChanceToDance]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

Polytrack at Woodbine and Turfway produces AMAZING amounts of kickback. The Tapeta is the only surface I've seen that, across the board, or oceans, is even in its lack of kickback.

The only track which produces a fair amount of kickback here is at Southwell, which is a fibresand surface. Much deeper and a much older surface than both Polytrack and Tapeta.

The Polytrack at Lingfield, Wolverhampton and Dundalk has very little kickback. The only time we do suffer slightly more kickback at those tracks is on VERY cold days, for whatever reason that maybe be, but even then it would still only be minimal.

Tapeta appears to have no kickback.

[Roc525]

The kickback at Turfway is insane. It looks like a huge dust cloud going around the track. It just may be a byproduct of the surface in cold weather. I'm sure it would do the same at Arlington if winter racing was held there.

[The Bid]

Hopefully it won't be as crappy as what we have here

roc..... You had some nice picks

twp is a complete joke

nc2d- they were sold he as zero prep racetracks. That was the major selling point.

Pat- just the facts here. If you could be so kind post Friday pp at meydan. I'm looking to run the card. Had 2 jackoffs rides today... Thought hot six ride stunk and thought my selection race before that stunk too. One things for sure, a pinhead is a pinhead no matter what, or where they ride

[my miss storm cat]

Here... since Pat isn't around right this second,

http://www.amwestentertainment.com/p...s-20100005.pdf

[PatCummings]

Sorry didn't post Friday here like I had before...often, I do post them on my website somewhere if not here.

Good luck to all!

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by NoChanceToDance

They have tested the surface significantly in regards to the climate, so I doubt that will ever be a problem...... And I cannot see them ripping it out without serious incidient beforehand as the negative press would be HUGE.

Pat,

Both Suroor and Barton have said that proven dirt specialists don't seem to handle it. Suroor wasn't complaining, he just said that after the disappointments of Midshipman and My Indy.

However, Barton was livid today - he said it was pointless buying the horses he has for the carnival as they are nearly all dirt horses and they won't handle it. I didn't see/read the interview but my mate said that he almost threatened not to run another horse on the Tapeta surface as it is so turf friendly, and would suit very few of his horses.

More and more people will begin to make concerns if this does continue to happen.

I'm all for synthetic surfaces as they have been proven to be safer for both horse and jockey, the kickback is much reduced and it seems to be a fair surface, but it acts so much like turf. I expected it to bring turf horses and dirt horses together on a surface both types of horse could handle well (and I believe that is their main reason for choosing Tapeta) however, it is almost like turf itself.

Jerry Barton still livid? I was shocked she went off at 30-1 here in the US. Great start to the morning.

[NoChanceToDance]

Barton might look a bit silly today, I think he stayed away from doing interviews!

Still can't understand all of the money for the De Kock filly today, she is good but he has said for several days about her set back she faced in Dubai and would prefer running over further. She was actually my lay today, as was Secrecy, who at evens was an awful price for a horse who was coming off the back of an average handicap win - insane!

Presvis at 2/7, as well........ there are some crazy, crazy people around the world betting on that sort of tosh!

[my miss storm cat]

Very very surprised where my girl finished. Haven't watched the replay yet.... it's not the end of the world but not at all what I expected.

On the flip side and even though my picks absolutely sucked I'm am f*****g thrilled to see that Yasoodd (hasn't won since 2006 but so what? ) and Mister Fasliyev (won 2 in a row in 2007 and that was that) both hit the board!

Both were at 33/1... something like that.

Makes me laugh just thinking about it. Good for them!

Old guys rule.

[NoChanceToDance]

Very disappointed with Bridge Of Gold today, there must have been something amiss? His trainer has never been quiet about this horse an has said from day one he's the best he's got.

Perhaps flying closer to the race worked against him, but they thought that was the best plan.

Whatever the reason, forget that run because he is seriously good.

[NoChanceToDance]

The Tapeta appears to be riding much differently today. Horses on the pace have really struggled so far, with all of the winners, apart from Mendip coming from mid division or further back. This suggests that we should give a lot of credit to Mendip for his opening race success, where Uncle Tom came from the clouds to take second close home.

I wonder if they have prepared the track slightly differently than to previous weeks or whether they have now decided to quicken the track up?

What ever the reason, it's certainly changed from the opening few days, when being on the pace (fast or slow) was an advantage.

They haven't gone overly quick in either of the last two races today, but the horses who were dictating have finished a long way off them at the wire.

[NoChanceToDance]

Massive surprise in the Guineas - couldn't have found that winner if I'd been looking at the card for a week!!!

Once again the horses came from the back to take the placings