Spectacular Bid

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I have PP's for horses like Dr. Fager, Citation and Native Dancer - but I don't have any way to gauge horses like that. I don't have access to chart books or results charts from that time - have no idea what their Ragozin figures look like - what their Beyers might look like - I don't have PP's of the competition they faced... so I feel totally in the dark about those horses.

I'm sure Dr. Fager was an all-time great - but it gets tricky to even guess without the aid of a lot of stuff.

Look at the Seattle Slew defeat to Exceller above - after watching that performance you'd think Seattle Slew was the greatest. However, I happen to think Seattle Slew might have only been the 5th or 6th best 3-year-old of the 70's. I've seen a lot of stuff that supports that belief.

He did however run some truly awesome races at age 4...albeit his 4yo season is hardly the stuff of legend in terms of accomplishment... unlike his 2yo and 3yo season.

Drugs, great post...Just curious, do you have the rogozin and or beyers of Spectaular Bid? Thanks

[tiggerv]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I have PP's for horses like Dr. Fager, Citation and Native Dancer - but I don't have any way to gauge horses like that. I don't have access to chart books or results charts from that time - have no idea what their Ragozin figures look like - what their Beyers might look like - I don't have PP's of the competition they faced... so I feel totally in the dark about those horses.

BTW good thread to put all time greats in perspective.

The quote on the first page about Bid's 4yo year being the best since Tom Fool is what made me think of Dr. Fager. I realize it's difficult to compare different eras and it's splitting hairs when comparing top 5 all time, but Dr. Fager sometimes get forgotten because he didn't run the triple crown races.

I couldn't find PPs but here his is 4yo year when he won Champion Sprint Horse, Co-champion Turf Horse, Champion Older Male and Horse of the Year:

Won the 7F Roseben @ Belmont carrying 130 and was 1/5 off track record
Won the 8.5F Californian @ Hollywood carrying 130 over Gamely
Won the 10F Suburban @ Belmont carrying 132 giving 2 pounds to Damascus equaling the track record
2nd in the 10F Brooklyn @ Aqueduct carrying 135 giving 5 pounds to Damascus who used a rabbit to win
Won the 9F Whitney @ Saratoga by 8 carrying 132 giving 18 pounds to the field
Won the 8F Washington Park @ Arlington carrying 134 and set the world record in 132 1/5. He ran the 2nd quarter in 20 3/5
Won the 9.5F United Nations @ Monmouth in his only turf start carrying 134 and giving 16 pounds to grass champion Fort Marcy
Won the 7F Vosburgh @ Aqueduct carrying 139! after Nerud supposedly asked for 145 and broke the track record by a full second

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Fifth or sixth best 3yo - not disagreeing or agreeing, just curious who would be in that top five or six?

Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Alydar would be my top 4.

Slew wasn't a fast horse on anyone's numbers and he ran against what really looked like very weak competition in the triple crown series.

Slew's Ragozin figs going into his final 3 Derby preps were 7.25, 7.25, and 10. He won the KY Derby with a 7 - only one horse has since won the KY Derby with a Rag sheet number as slow or slower - that was Sea Hero - who also ran a 7.

It wasn't just Ragozin - Beyer talked how weak Slew was on his figures as a 3yo in his book 'My $50,000 Year At The Races' - and how overrated he thought he was.

Obviously - Slew's Derby win was easily one of the most impressive visually I've ever seen. It was awesome considering the big early trouble he had - but when you learn it was as slow as Sea Hero's .. that sure takes the sparkle off of it.

Run Dusty Run was 2nd to him in the Derby and Belmont and 3rd in the Preakness - Iron Constitution was 2nd to him in the Preakness. These two aren't beasts.

* Derby and Belmont 2nd place finishers 3yo season:




* Preakness 2nd place finisher




After the Belmont - Slew went out to Hollywood Park for his next start and tanked against 3yo's in a non-effort. He didn't run again that season.

I realize he won the triple crown - Real Quiet came within a nose and arguably a smarter ride of doing so - Charismatic came close - and obviously no one considers them a better 3yo than a horse like Holy Bull. I thought Alydar was clearly better at 3.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

Drugs, great post...Just curious, do you have the rogozin and or beyers of Spectaular Bid? Thanks

No Beyers for Bid.

He was sensationally fast on the Ragozin's at both age 3 and age 4 and through all parts of those two seasons.

From '70 to '99 - only Secretariat (0.75) ran a faster Kentucky Derby number than Bid (1.75)

From '70 to '99 - Spend a Buck was the only Derby winner to ever run a faster number than Bid in a Derby prep race.

As a 4-year-old - Bid ran the fastest rag sheet number ever - and it was not broken until Congaree's first Cigar Mile win more than 20 years later.

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

No Beyers for Bid.

He was sensationally fast on the Ragozin's at both age 3 and age 4 and through all parts of those two seasons.

From '70 to '99 - only Secretariat (0.75) ran a faster Kentucky Derby number than Bid (1.75)

From '70 to '99 - Spend a Buck was the only Derby winner to ever run a faster number than Bid in a Derby prep race.

As a 4-year-old - Bid ran the fastest rag sheet number ever - and it was not broken until Congaree's first Cigar Mile win more than 20 years later.

THANKS.............

[Danzig]

this is how you know a horse is a great one. you don't have to argue, discuss, or convince.
the only debate is where in the top five all time this horse should be residing. he and secretariat, citation and the immortal, original big red are the top four. there's a reason why, 90 years after he retired, people still mention man o war.
i'm just lucky that i got to see a horse the likes of which we may never see again. the 70's was a time of riches for this sport.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Random question, but does anyone know what the purse was for the Young America?

Forevere Casting, ridden by jockey Eddie Delahoussaye won the inaugural running of the Young America Stakes in November 1977, winning the purse of $144,500

And this is how I found that out!

http://tinyurl.com/32dwq4d

[robfla]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Random question, but does anyone know what the purse was for the Young America?

I don't know about 1978 ( the Bid's win ), but The Young America was inaugurated in 1977 with as purse of $144,500

[hockey2315]

Found it - $137,500 - thanks. Had to settle a bet.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Forevere Casting, ridden by jockey Eddie Delahoussaye won the inaugural running of the Young America Stakes in November 1977, winning the purse of $144,500

And this is how I found that out!

http://tinyurl.com/32dwq4d

You are soooo helpful.

I used Brisnet.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by hockey2315

Found it - $137,500 - thanks. Had to settle a bet.

Did you win?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

The Young America was like Bid's letdown race .. oddly, his best race as a 2yo came nine days later in the Gr 1 LRL Futurity.

He destroyed General Assembly by 8.5 lengths in track record time. Clever Trick (who won 18 of 29 career starts - and sired Phone Trick - sire of 2yo horse of the year Favorite Trick and champion 2yo filly Phone Chatter) was 3rd beaten 20+ lengths.



It was one of the fastest races ever run by a 2-year-old .. and it marked The Bid's 3rd Grade 1 stakes win in a span of just 20 days.

Imagine today if a 2-year-old won 3 Grade 1's in a span of just 20 days.

[hockey2315]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Did you win?

Wasn't involved.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The Young America was like Bid's letdown race .. oddly, his best race as a 2yo came nine days later in the Gr 1 LRL Futurity.

He destroyed General Assembly by 8.5 lengths in track record time. Clever Trick (who won 18 of 29 career starts - and sired Phone Trick - sire of 2yo horse of the year Favorite Trick and champion 2yo filly Phone Chatter) was 3rd beaten 20+ lengths.



It was one of the fastest races ever run by a 2-year-old .. and it marked The Bid's 3rd Grade 1 stakes win in a span of just 20 days.

Imagine today if a 2-year-old won 3 Grade 1's in a span of just 20 days.

I think the only way that could happen is if a 2yo won the last BC grade 1 prep, they make the bc juvi turf g1 and it wins that, then wins the bc juvi the next day.

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The Young America was like Bid's letdown race .. oddly, his best race as a 2yo came nine days later in the Gr 1 LRL Futurity.

He destroyed General Assembly by 8.5 lengths in track record time. Clever Trick (who won 18 of 29 career starts - and sired Phone Trick - sire of 2yo horse of the year Favorite Trick and champion 2yo filly Phone Chatter) was 3rd beaten 20+ lengths.



It was one of the fastest races ever run by a 2-year-old .. and it marked The Bid's 3rd Grade 1 stakes win in a span of just 20 days.

Imagine today if a 2-year-old won 3 Grade 1's in a span of just 20 days.

WOW

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

and have to add that progression from age 2 to age 3 doesn't always happen either.............just look at all of the 2 yr old champions since The Bid, and not one has repeated as 3 yr old champion. He was AMAZING

Street Sense won both the Juvenile and the Derby - whether he was a named Champion etc.. is just some silly voting thing. He won it on the track

but back to Spectacular Bid

I think if you add up all of his payoffs

Mine That Bird did more for the bettor

[AeWingnut]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I'd have to say that LAL is at least the equal of the Bid. LAL was able to win on TWO different surfaces! Until you can show me when the Bid did that, I'm going to rank LAL higher.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Looking at the 70's the best I could - I have to think for sure he's the top rated horse since 1970.

He had that sprinter/miler pedigree and was basically a machine between the distances of 7 furlongs to 10 furlongs.

.

How you get sprinter/miler out of Bold Bidder/Promised Land is beyond me. Bold Bidder won 3 major stakes races at 10f - Charles H. Strub (NTR), Monmouth H, and Hawthorne Gold Cup - to go with his mile wins (Jerome H and Washington Park H). Promised Land's biggest wins were the Pimlico Special (at 3, 1 3/16 in the fall), the Lawrence Realization (the New York St. Leger, at 1 5/8 miles), and the San Juan Capistrano (1 3/4 miles); he is a strong influence for stamina. Yes, Bid's dam's only stakes placing was in a 6f race (in which she lost to Flying Paster's dam Procne), but that didn't mean sprinting ability was all she inherited. Moreover, Bid was inbred 3 x 3 to To Market, a multiple major SW at 10f and a son of Jockey Club Gold Cup winner Market Wise.

It is interesting that Bid's second dam was a twin; she was Stop on Red and her twin sister was Go on Green. GoG ran 32 times and won 7, while SoR ran 51 times and also won 7 times.

By the way, Bid's sons at stud in Australia/NZ did well enough to still be showing up in pedigrees of top horses. Bite the Bullet sired multiple G1 winner Sniper's Bullet (a 7yo still running), Spectacular Spy and Spectacular Love sired G1 winners, and Spectacularphantom is damsire of current Kiwi star Katie Lee.

[Pedigree Ann]

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

WOW

Now you see why us old-timers, who grew up (trackwise) on horses like 'Bid feel many of today's horses are fat, pampered, overhyped wannabes?

No flames please. I'm thinking Quality Road outside of Florida, not somebody else.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I think if you rated the most outstanding Saratoga 3-year-old seasons of all time - General Assembley would be right up there.

I think you'd have to put Go for Wand up there too. She won the Test in 1:21 and then nine days later, won the Alabama in 2:00 4/5. For good measure, she came back the next month and won at Belmont in 1:45 4/5, just missing Secretariat's 9f track record of 1:45 2/5. She did this as a 3yo filly. Amazing.