If he wins - will they put him in the Hall of Fame?

[pointman]

Originally Posted by justindew

You are an unbridled moron if you equate being paid as a blogger to being paid as an expert.

I love it when people jump aboard the bandwagon to bash me without having any idea of what my job was.

The fact that you get paid anything related to this industry is an injustice. Please feel free to continue to tell us what horses you love in a race like you did Sunday so I can toss them. I would ask that you do it before a multi race sequence so I can adjust accordingly.

[justindew]

Originally Posted by pointman

The fact that you get paid anything related to this industry is an injustice. Please feel free to continue to tell us what horses you love in a race like you did Sunday so I can toss them. I would ask that you do it before a multi race sequence so I can adjust accordingly.

I guess you missed the San Felipe contest.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

A. I know who rode for who, and you know I do.
B. The earnings stuff is crap because it doesn't help your point, had it favored Chavez, you would have used it.
C. Didn't you use riding titles for 3 of your examples as to Chavez's quality? Which one is it?
D. It's okay to admit you were wrong, we all are every once in awhile.

I'm not a Chavez fan at all.

I don't think he or Solis deserve any consideration. That's all.

Not sure what you think I was wrong about. Maybe my opinion that Chavez was WAY better than Solis. If that's what you think I'm wrong about ... I don't care.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I'm not a Chavez fan at all.

I don't think he or Solis deserve any consideration. That's all.

Not sure what you think I was wrong about. Maybe my opinion that Chavez was WAY better than Solis. If that's what you think I'm wrong about ... I don't care.

You were wrong about Solis. The 5th-12th best rider in a room doesn't win 6 straight meets in a major circuit.

I don't care if any of them get in ever. My only point is, if toothy should get in, then Solis REALLY deserves to.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

You were wrong about Solis. The 5th-12th best rider in a room doesn't win 6 straight meets in a major circuit.

Ok - lets look at the Graded Stakes wins for the six meets consisting of that streak. Keep in mind - Solis won riding titles at all six of them.



'95-'96 Santa Anita winter meet: Graded Stakes wins

Stevens: 10
Antley: 7
Nakatani: 7
McCarron: 7
Delahoussaye: 5
Solis: 3
Desormeaux: 3


'96 Hollywood Park Spring meet: Graded Stakes wins

Nakatani: 7
McCarron: 6
Delahoussaye: 5
Desormeaux: 4
Antley: 2
Flores: 2
Bailey: 1
Solis: 1


'96 Del Mar meet: Graded Stakes wins:

Nakatani: 5
Antley: 3
McCarron: 3
Douglas: 2
Solis: 2
4 tied with 1


'96 Oak Tree meet: Graded Stakes wins:

McCarron: 4
Nakatani: 3
Garcia: 1
Delahoussaye: 1
Fires: 1
Desormeaux: 1
Antley: 1
Stevens: 1
Solis: 0


'96 Hollywood Fall meet: Graded Stakes wins:

Stevens: 3
McCarron: 3
Nakatani: 3
Solis: 2
Delahoussaye: 1
Velazquez: 1
Day: 1


'96-'97 Santa Anita winter meet: Graded Stakes wins:

Nakatani: 11
McCarron: 6
Stevens: 5
Flores: 3
Delahoussaye: 3
Desormeaux: 2
Solis: 2
Garcia: 1
Bailey: 1
Blanc: 1
Silva: 1
Almeida: 1
Black: 1
Douglas: 1



Basically - Solis was making his living in Cal Bred races and claiming races. The kind of races that already rich vets like Stevens, Eddie D, McCarron, and Desormeaux all wanted pretty much no part of.

Over that span - the younger Nakatani won 36 Graded Stakes to just 10 for Solis.

Chris Antley - who I honestly didn't even remember riding in So. Cal in the mid 90's - won more big races.

This begs the question - if Solis was truely one of the four best riders in the room during this time .... how come he wasn't getting it done in the big races?

[Dahoss]

It's that tough to admit, huh?

You want to keep changing the rules until you're somewhat redeemed, as now only winning graded stakes counts. We both know Borel can't compare to Solis in that aspect and I'm sure Chavez can't either.

But I'm interested in seeing a breakdown of Chavez's glory years and how his graded stakes wins compares with the other riders in his colony.

I'm just glad I learned the only races run in Southern California in the 90's were graded stakes, Cal Bred races and claiming races (apparently MSW's and allowance races didn't come along until the 21st century).

[The Indomitable DrugS]

If you bet those races - you'd know how brutal Solis was.

Everyone knocks Russell Baze for winning those type of races in No. Cal - but Russell was obviously a much better jockey than Solis.

[Dahoss]

Yeah that's it. I didn't bet then.

You didn't remember Antley rode in So Cal then, but you remember how bad Solis was.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Yeah that's it. I didn't bet then.

I thought OTB's in New York didn't start showing Southern Cal racing until the late 90's?

Not only did the good people of Erie have the full card So. Cal circuit races on our local cable station as early as 1992 (before racing on the Internet) ... but the Erie OTB also started taking full card on So. Cal - and about 20-to-25 other track as early as 1992 or 1993.

Either way ... it's not like Solis has improved any.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I thought OTB's in New York didn't start showing Southern Cal racing until the late 90's?

Not only did the good people of Erie have the full card So. Cal circuit races on our local cable station as early as 1992 (before racing on the Internet) ... but the Erie OTB also started taking full card on So. Cal - and about 20-to-25 other track as early as 1992 or 1993.

Either way ... it's not like Solis has improved any.

Your debating skills today rival those of Pippy.

Perhaps Hossy should award you the iron fist for debate skill?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I will never rival Pippy.

The following column describes the career of Alex Solis in a lot of ways ...

http://www.drf.com/news/chavez-deserves-new-nickname-0

However,

* Solis is not aggressive

* Gamblers hated him instead of loved him

* Solis never won a Kentucky Derby with a "smooth, flawless, tactical performance"

* Solis never won an Eclipse award for being the nations best rider for a full year.

Sadly - Solis did have a longer and more steady career on a tougher year-round circuit. He had far fewer peaks and valleys than Chavez. He was always that 5th to 12th best guy in the Jock's room. You know - the rider that you can often count on to screw one up - but still always look like a well polished pro while he's butchering a ride.


Of course - IC loves Solis because he beat the hell out of Nakatani after Nakatani pushed another jockey off a horse during the gallop-out.

[Indian Charlie]

I always liked Solis, relative to other jockeys, that is.

It's really not possible for me to 'love' a jockey. I guess the closest would be Pincay.

Being the go to guy for Mel Stute is hardly the same thing as being the go to guy for Frankel, Lukas, Baffert, etc.

All that aside, your tenaciousness on this topic certainly does rival Pippy's incessant belief that the other person is wrong.

He's the only person to ever outlast you in a horse argument.

Today, you are Pip.

Tell me you really don't think Chavez was better than Solis.

Who would you rather have on your horse?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I wouldn't even consider either of them now. Chavez, in his day, was better though because he was a very good front-end rider and the greatest wet track jockey I've ever seen. He beat me countless times stealing races on the front at Gulfstream. He owned the old Gulfstream.

I never liked Solis on speed - hated him as a gate rider - and even though he has a reputation as a strong finisher who is good on deep closers .. I think he makes a lot of poorly timed wide moves.

They both have no business in the Hall of Fame.

Solis was never even a finalist for the Eclipse Award. Think about that for a second ... he's been established since 1984 ... and he never once was 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in the voting points for best season by a jockey.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I wouldn't even consider either of them now. Chavez, in his day, was better though because he was a very good front-end rider and the greatest wet track jockey I've ever seen. He beat me countless times stealing races on the front at Gulfstream. He owned the old Gulfstream.

I never liked Solis on speed - hated him as a gate rider - and even though he has a reputation as a strong finisher who is good on deep closers .. I think he makes a lot of poorly timed wide moves.

They both have no business in the Hall of Fame.

Solis was never even a finalist for the Eclipse Award. Think about that for a second ... he's been established since 1984 ... and he never once was 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in the voting points for best season by a jockey.

Trivia question.

Who got voted HOY in 2010?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I thought OTB's in New York didn't start showing Southern Cal racing until the late 90's?

Not only did the good people of Erie have the full card So. Cal circuit races on our local cable station as early as 1992 (before racing on the Internet) ... but the Erie OTB also started taking full card on So. Cal - and about 20-to-25 other track as early as 1992 or 1993.

Either way ... it's not like Solis has improved any.

We got full card for a ton of tracks by '94 or '95, maybe before.

Either way it doesn't make your point any less wrong. Just another attempt to move the goal posts.

[Dahoss]

Just to put an end to this on my end (I'm bored, but not this bored) I'm fine if none of them ever get in.

But if Borel should get in, so should Solis based on their career numbers. Chavez doesn't even belong in the discussion despite him beating DrugS on the front end at Gulfstream.

Is it too early for a drink?

[TouchOfGrey]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Is it too early for a drink?

It's never too early for a drink.

[slotdirt]

I don't have 1/1000th the horse racing knowledge of these two combatants, but doesn't winning three different Derbies kind of trump 3,821 SoCal riding titles, at least in the eyes of turf writers?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by slotdirt

I don't have 1/1000th the horse racing knowledge of these two combatants, but doesn't winning three different Derbies kind of trump 3,821 SoCal riding titles, at least in the eyes of turf writers?

If you think Borel should be in, it's the only reason he would deserve it over the other guys IMO, and I get that. I don't agree, but I can see it.

[slotdirt]

It would kind of be like sticking Dizzy Dean in the baseball Hall of Fame. Then again, baseball's Borel is probably Roger Maris or Kirk Gibson, and neither of them will ever get in the Hall.