welfare vs wages

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

no:


'yeah, it seems many have forgotten what henry ford always thought and worked by, pay your employees enough that they can afford to buy the product they're making.' last time i checked, henry ford had owned a car maker

and then i said : 'thing is, people like to look down their noses at people in fast food, or other service industries...'

Yes Henry Ford owned a car maker and his employees made cars. Fast food workers make hamburgers and fries and it's hard for me to believe, using your Henry Ford model, they can't afford the product they make.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

60K is not rich and I think is fair pay, it's also a far cry from minimum wage and with healthcare added I would definitely consider it middle class.

When the $30-$35K comes from the taxpayer, then yes I consider it lavish. Drawing from the employee's 401K, I consider livable with Medicare and SS added. I also call it self-reliant and not taxpayer subsidized.

Illinois and many other states don't have a problem with payroll it's pensions that have been neglected/pilfered and mismanaged at no fault of the taxpayer yet guess who's on the line?

You are aware many public employees don't get 401Ks, aren't you? And that many also don't get SS? So their pensions, which were PROMISED TO THEM, are all they get. My uncle, who was a state trooper for over 30 years, is one of those public employees who gets no SS.

Yes, it's horrible that elected officials overestimated market returns and so chronically underfunded pensions, but who was in charge of electing those officials? Right... we taxpayers. And we taxpayers are the ones who benefit from not having garbage-strewn streets, highways that are in reasonable condition, police on patrol and fire fighters. We pay their salaries because they WORK FOR US. The least we can do is not renege on the employment contracts we made with them. God forbid they get to live a middle class life and have some security in their retirement years. God forbid.

[GenuineRisk]

Some info on Detroit, which is looking at cutting pensions:

But the average pension benefit in Detroit is not especially high. The average annual payment is about $19,000, said Bruce Babiarz, a spokesman for the pension funds. And it is about $30,000 for retired police officers and firefighters, who do not get Social Security benefits, he said. Some retired workers get larger pensions, though: about 82 retirees who either worked many years or had high-salaried jobs are paid pensions of more than $90,000 a year, he said.

Among them is Isaiah McKinnon, who was the city’s police chief in the 1990s and whose pension is just over $92,000 a year. Dr. McKinnon said he and other officers earned their retirement money by serving in a dangerous profession. Dr. McKinnon was shot at eight times while on the job and was stabbed twice, and he has scars from the attacks on his neck and abdomen, he said.

Dr. McKinnon, who holds a doctoral degree in education administration, is an associate professor at the University of Detroit Mercy. He expressed concern about retired rank-and-file officers whose pensions were based on salaries far lower than his.

“We’re in this predicament, and everyone has to suffer to an extent,” Dr. McKinnon said. “But the predicament and the percentage — that has to be talked about.”

So, out of 21,000 municipal retirees, only 82 are getting over $90,000 a year. And if the average pension is $19,000, that means quite a few are getting less than $19,000 a year.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/us...anted=all&_r=0

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Danzig

no:


'yeah, it seems many have forgotten what henry ford always thought and worked by, pay your employees enough that they can afford to buy the product they're making.' last time i checked, henry ford had owned a car maker

and then i said : 'thing is, people like to look down their noses at people in fast food, or other service industries...'

From "Nickeled and Dimed":

“When someone works for less pay than she can live on — when, for example, she goes hungry so that you can eat more cheaply and conveniently — then she has made a great sacrifice for you, she has made you a gift of some part of her abilities, her health, and her life. The 'working poor,' as they are approvingly termed, are in fact the major philanthropists of our society. They neglect their own children so that the children of others will be cared for; they live in substandard housing so that other homes will be shiny and perfect; they endure privation so that inflation will be low and stock prices high. To be a member of the working poor is to be an anonymous donor, a nameless benefactor, to everyone else.”

[dellinger63]

God forbid some young middle class family who has never been on the public dole is unable to afford a tutor or even help out with college for their children because of the politicians who hired family as pension fund managers, who in turn fleeced the money.

Privatizing the sanitation department and other bloated, mismanaged, patronage filled departments will prevent that problem from ever happening again.

[dellinger63]

“When someone works for less pay than she can live on — when, for example, she goes hungry so that you can eat more cheaply and conveniently — then she has made a great sacrifice for you, she has made you a gift of some part of her abilities, her health, and her life. The 'working poor,' as they are approvingly termed, are in fact the major philanthropists of our society. They neglect their own children so that the children of others will be cared for; they live in substandard housing so that other homes will be shiny and perfect; they endure privation so that inflation will be low and stock prices high. To be a member of the working poor is to be an anonymous donor, a nameless benefactor, to everyone else.”

A testament to 'stay in school' even if it be a trade school.

BTW A poor woman who goes hungry yet produces children who undoubtedly will go hungry is compounding the poverty in America problem far more than the minimum wage paying store owner living in a shiny house is by far.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

A testament to 'stay in school' even if it be a trade school.

BTW A poor woman who goes hungry yet produces children who undoubtedly will go hungry is compounding the poverty in America problem far more than the minimum wage paying store owner living in a shiny house is by far.

ok...
are you willing to see the fast food industry disappear completely? are you a consumer of fast food?

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

ok...
are you willing to see the fast food industry disappear completely? are you a consumer of fast food?

If we don't increase minimum wage, the fast food industry will disappear?

And no I am not a consumer of fast food, or at least try not to be. Of course I consider trying to preserve good health my responsibility and not my neighbor's vis a vis government.

BTW I don't always enjoy exercising either

[Danzig]

my point is that industries are here to service people. that we shouldn't demand a service, and then demand that people be paid low wages to support our wants. we can't have it both ways, can we?
i don't buy fast food, but many do. yes, they are typically unskilled. many are also hard-working with mouths to feed. the average age of fast food employees is not 18, they aren't high schoolers. it's closer to 30.
if corps. paid living wages, we wouldn't need the govt to pick up the slack, thus lowering tax demand. poor mcdonals might only make $2 billion in profit instead of $3billion, poor guys.

people want fast food. people have to work in fast food to provide the service. as a requirement, we want them to be poor?
what about the fact that min. wage should be about $10/hour if it kept up with all the wage and living increases?

or is the answer to just keep people stupid and poor? i mean, they deserve it, because we want mcdonalds, right?

will the fast food industry disappear? of course not. should people be paid a decent wage? absolutely.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

God forbid some young middle class family who has never been on the public dole is unable to afford a tutor or even help out with college for their children because of the politicians who hired family as pension fund managers, who in turn fleeced the money.

Privatizing the sanitation department and other bloated, mismanaged, patronage filled departments will prevent that problem from ever happening again.

Because private industry is never, ever, ever mismanaged and private industry never, ever gives jobs to incompetent family members.

This ridiculous meme that private industry is inherently more capable of handling public services is a zombie that just won't die. Except instead of eating brains, it eats the middle class and the poor.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

A testament to 'stay in school' even if it be a trade school.

BTW A poor woman who goes hungry yet produces children who undoubtedly will go hungry is compounding the poverty in America problem far more than the minimum wage paying store owner living in a shiny house is by far.

Uh, no. In fact, the grossly overpaid CEO is the bigger problem.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

will the fast food industry disappear? of course not. .

Then why in the world did you ask me if I wanted them to disappear?

Do you tip your fast food server? Or the person at the drive-thru?

You realize individual McDonald's restaurants are owned by franchisees and not the corporation, no?

You also realize many McDonald's employees, especially in urban areas are paid more than minimum wage and sometimes even double?

Or is it someone built the road to the McDonalds so jimmy crack corn and I don't care?

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Uh, no. In fact, the grossly overpaid CEO is the bigger problem.

Yea and he/she is overpaid and the CEO because they hit the lottery. Not because of their intelligence, work and talents.

Plus CEO's are exempt from income taxes and contribute nothing to either the treasury or charity.

In fact if there were no overpaid CEO's there would be no poverty. Look at North Korea.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Because private industry is never, ever, ever mismanaged and private industry never, ever gives jobs to incompetent family members.

This ridiculous meme that private industry is inherently more capable of handling public services is a zombie that just won't die. Except instead of eating brains, it eats the middle class and the poor.

Except private companies are threatened and punished for mismanagement and incompetent family members with bankruptcy and failure. While public services simply print more money and go further into debt. Passing the bill to the next generation. When the next generation doesn't have the means to pay, Detroit happens.

Artificially setting wages as a solution to poverty is equivalent to trying to open a can with a sponge or solving a criminal problem with a midnight basketball league.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

Then why in the world did you ask me if I wanted them to disappear?

Do you tip your fast food server? Or the person at the drive-thru?

You realize individual McDonald's restaurants are owned by franchisees and not the corporation, no?

You also realize many McDonald's employees, especially in urban areas are paid more than minimum wage and sometimes even double?

Or is it someone built the road to the McDonalds so jimmy crack corn and I don't care?

because if we want that as an industry, we must make sure it's a viable industry, and offers viable employment.
and no, i don't tip them, i don't go to those places. but i recognize that there's a need, and the employees need to be paid. and should be paid.
if your answer is that everyone should learn a skill and get a good job...then i would ask, who will work at fast food places? those jobs are necessary. are we supposed to just sneer at those poor, dumb sods but buy the product anyway? are we to just tell ourselves that it's their fault they work there?

when i was in the navy, as the chief told us in orientation in boot camp....some jobs in the military are more glamorous than others. but who is more important? for example, the pilot of the fighter plane, or the unsung mechanic who makes sure every bolt is tight? every job in the military is important, whether the yeoman who shuffles papers, or the boiler tech, or the nuke ET. they all are needed. they aren't all 'sexy', but they are all necessary.

now, should a mcdonals employee make 100k a year? of course not. should he or she be paid a living wage? absolutely. who is more important to the hungry person going thru the drive thru? i promise, it isn't the high paid ceo or the shareholder. you want your burger, and you want it now.

and what does it matter if some are franchises instead of corporate?

oh, and i do apologize. mcd's profits were't $3 billion.
it was $5 billion. but yeah, i see your point. they'd be hardpressed to pay more, wouldn't they?


and 'artificially setting wages'? the min. wage has been around for decades, but it has lagged with the rest of growth. it should be at $10/hour or so right now. wages are stagnant all over, not just there.
define 'artificial' what does that mean?

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and 'artificially setting wages'? the min. wage has been around for decades, but it has lagged with the rest of growth. it should be at $10/hour or so right now. wages are stagnant all over, not just there.
define 'artificial' what does that mean?

Artificial is the government deciding what a wage should be regardless of the business or what skill set is needed to work a particular job.

If a McDonald's was having a hard time staffing a restaurant would it just close or raise wages? Do McDonald's employers in urban areas and wealthy parts offer more than minimum wage because those owners are more generous or because they'd have a hard time finding employees at minimum wage?

You do realize a fighter pilot could swab a deck and clean a latrine after taking off and landing on a aircraft but a seaman swabbing a deck doesn't have a chance successfully flying the jet. Wonder how your boot camp Chief would have responded if you said, "so I am just as important as you?"

In other words I have a feeling the Chief was lying to ya all.

[Danzig]

no, his point was even if someone is a 'lowly' deckhand, they are important.
a pilot can't complete his mission if the plane falls apart because the nuts and bolts weren't tightened. ships can't sail for very long without everyone on the team.
everyone likes to bust on the laundry detail...but guess what, you have to have clean skivvies.
people like to rag on fast food workers-but who else will fix the big macs people like so much? your garbage man-you don't want to go to the dump, do you?
people like to think they're superior, i guess it makes them feel better about themselves.

and the govt doesn't set wages, it just sets the low point. yeah, it would be soooo much better if we left it to the corporations to set those.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

people like to think they're superior, i guess it makes them feel better about themselves.

And some people think the system is fixed and the reason for their failure. Guess it makes them feel better rather than blaming themselves for getting pregnant as a child or dropping out of high school to hang out or etc. etc. etc.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

And some people think the system is fixed and the reason for their failure. Guess it makes them feel better rather than blaming themselves for getting pregnant as a child or dropping out of high school to hang out or etc. etc. etc.

so, food workers are pregnant drop outs? wow.

[Danzig]

http://www.policymic.com/articles/60...u-need-to-know


note:

Few work full-time because the industry cuts work hours at 32 hours so they don't have to give benefits…


http://www.theatlantic.com/business/...-child/278424/


Meanwhile, the vast majority have at least a high school degree, and a surprising 31 percent have at least some college. Presumably, some of those people are students working their way through school, but exactly how many who knows. The broader point is that these jobs aren't primarily a refuge for high school dropouts.