Perspective

[King Glorious]

I saw this posted somewhere else and thought it was interesting enough to share:

We are going to possibly have the undefeated Arkansas Derby winner, the undefeated Blue Grass Stakes winner, and the undefeated Santa Anita Derby winner square off in the Ky Derby. Thirty years ago it would have been considered an unfathomable, unprecedented matchup of titans. This year it's pretty much considered....meh, not much to talk about.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I saw this posted somewhere else and thought it was interesting enough to share:

We are going to possibly have the undefeated Arkansas Derby winner, the undefeated Blue Grass Stakes winner, and the undefeated Santa Anita Derby winner square off in the Ky Derby. Thirty years ago it would have been considered an unfathomable, unprecedented matchup of titans. This year it's pretty much considered....meh, not much to talk about.

Perspective? More like amnesia.

In 2018, the unbeaten Justify (Santa Anita Derby) beat the unbeaten Magnum Moon (Arkansas Derby) and the once-beaten Audible (Florida Derby) and 2yo champion Good Magic (Blue Grass).

In 2015, the unbeaten American Pharaoh (Arkansas Derby) beat the unbeaten Dortmund (Santa Anita Derby) and the unbeaten Materiality (Florida Derby) and once-beaten Carpe Diem (Blue Grass).

This would have been "unfathomable" thirty years ago because a horse with just 5 starts under his belt would have been considered "lightly raced", horses that made their career debuts in January would have had no chance, and a horse coming out of turf races would have been from Europe. A lot has changed (for the negative) in the past 30 years.

Also, both Bob Baffert and John Sadler couldn't train a horse to go past 6 furlongs back in the early 1990s if their lives depended on it. Sadler running anything in something other than a claimer or a maiden claimer would be almost unheard of back then. Brad Cox was probably playing Nintendo...

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Perspective? More like amnesia.

In 2018, the unbeaten Justify (Santa Anita Derby) beat the unbeaten Magnum Moon (Arkansas Derby) and the once-beaten Audible (Florida Derby) and 2yo champion Good Magic (Blue Grass).

In 2015, the unbeaten American Pharaoh (Arkansas Derby) beat the unbeaten Dortmund (Santa Anita Derby) and the unbeaten Materiality (Florida Derby) and once-beaten Carpe Diem (Blue Grass).

This would have been "unfathomable" thirty years ago because a horse with just 5 starts under his belt would have been considered "lightly raced", horses that made their career debuts in January would have had no chance, and a horse coming out of turf races would have been from Europe. A lot has changed (for the negative) in the past 30 years.

Also, both Bob Baffert and John Sadler couldn't train a horse to go past 6 furlongs back in the early 1990s if their lives depended on it. Sadler running anything in something other than a claimer or a maiden claimer would be almost unheard of back then. Brad Cox was probably playing Nintendo...

You forgot to include that the beat the Jeff Ruby winners too.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

You forgot to include that the beat the Jeff Ruby winners too.

The Spiral/Jeff Ruby winners from 2015 and 2018 didn't compete in the Kentucky Derby.

Back in the '90s, the Jim Beam was nothing to shake a stick at. Winners included Broad Brush, Summer Squall, Hansel, Lil E. Tee, and Prairie Bayou.

"Unbeaten" usually just means a horse hasn't consistently faced good competition and/or is lightly raced.

In the context of the Derby, 20-30 years ago, being unbeaten was the kiss of death. See Indian Charlie, Private Terms, Mister Frisky, Air Forbes Won.

I'd rather see horses with records like Forty Niner, Gulch, Bet Twice, Alysheba, Easy Goer, Snow Chief, Chief's Crown, Tank's Prospect, Swale, Summer Squall, Holy Bull, Thunder Gulch, Silver Charm, Best Pal, Fly So Free, Cryptoclearance, Came Home, Unbridled's Song, Regal Classic, Hansel, Pine Bluff, etc. heading into the Derby then some recent 7-furlong maiden winner who has his stud deal all worked out the evening before his first Grade 1 race.

[King Glorious]

First, I was accused of having a West Coast inferiority complex because i fail to recognize the Jeff Ruby as a major prep. How dare you tell me that the winners of the race from 2015 to 2018 didn't even run in the race. That would support my position and we can't have that. Second, how dare you leave off Event of the Year. He was going to win the Derby in 1998. Yes, indeed the Jim Beam used to be a much bigger race.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

First, I was accused of having a West Coast inferiority complex because i fail to recognize the Jeff Ruby as a major prep. How dare you tell me that the winners of the race from 2015 to 2018 didn't even run in the race. That would support my position and we can't have that.

Ah...I fell for it. I like what you've done there.

This thread is all about you...again. Good thing I completed a psychiatric residency at the Hoffer-Mandhoff-Neier Clinic in Belgium (or the Netherlands).

Let's see: Forget the West Coast inferiority complex, I'm going with a primary inferiority complex.

In 2015, Dubai Sky had won 4 in a row and was a full brother to Twirling Candy but broke a hind leg before the Derby. In 2018, Blended Citizen tried to run in the Derby but didn't draw in. He won the Peter Pan instead.

Second, how dare you leave off Event of the Year. He was going to win the Derby in 1998.

On second thought, make that a northern California inferiority complex.

Event of the Year wasn't winning anything; his knee was broke. It would have been a disaster if he ran in the Derby.

Yes, indeed the Jim Beam used to be a much bigger race.

So now it's back to being a major prep?

Ok, we also have an overlying bipolar disorder here.

Maybe you're just one of those actors paid to help medical students diagnose.

What's next?

Cirrhosis of the liver? PCP addiction?

Any burning sensation during urination?

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

?

Cirrhosis of the liver? PCP addiction?

Where did you study Nephrology? Can you help me?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Where did you study Nephrology? Can you help me?

I would be diagnosed with a God or messiah complex if I thought I could really help you.

Try cranberry juice or a lobotomy.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I would be diagnosed with a God or messiah complex if I thought I could really help you.

Try cranberry juice or a lobotomy.

Will Vodka and Cran be satisfactory

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Will Vodka and Cran be satisfactory

Not sure it will help your kidneys, but cranberry juice will certainly make Tito's Vodka go down easier.

Doubles as hand sanitizer in a pinch, too.

[King Glorious]

No, the thread was about how little buzz there is considering that the winners of those three major preps will all be undefeated if Concert Tour wins. I just threw in the Jeff Ruby thing for fun.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

No, the thread was about how little buzz there is considering that the winners of those three major preps will all be undefeated if Concert Tour wins. I just threw in the Jeff Ruby thing for fun.

Well to get back on track, being undefeated in this case means something a lot different from what is implied by using that adjective.

To reiterate, being "undefeated" simply means the horse hasn't been thoroughly tested and/or is lightly raced.

Event of the Year from 1998 is a perfect example. Here's a horse that ran some fast races at a second tier track against small fields, beating 2 stablemates in is first stakes race. He then went to Turfway Park and ended up beating--you guessed it--another horse coming out of a race at Bay Meadows who had been drilled in all his major races at 2. Never tested before the Derby, and despite that had developed a significant knee problem that ultimately kept him out of the race. And yet he was supposed to handle both the pace of horses like Old Trieste, Indian Charlie, Favorite Trick, and Artax and then hold off the stretch runs of horses like Real Quiet, Victory Gallop, and Halory Hunter? I don't think so.

It would have made more sense to suggest the curiously absent Coronado's Quest as a would be Derby winner considering his exploits both before and after the Derby (Wood, Riva Ridge, Dwyer, Haskell, Travers)...

I'm not going to call Essential Quality a titan because he--after a series of easy trips-- had to run down a heretofore sprinter that swapped back to his left lead late first time running around two-turns.

I'm not going to call Rock Your World a titan for having the mettle to outlast a pace rival that has been beaten an average of 19 lengths in each of 3 prep races this year and holding sway late over a one-paced rival that has second-class citizen status in his own barn.

I'm not going to call Concert Tour a titan whose only acid test to date was dueling down the lane with a similarly inexperienced stablemate coming off a 6-month layoff in a sprint who came back to get buried in flat mile race by some of the same horses who participated in what was questioned as "the worst prep in horse racing history".

...by the way, when Event of the Year finally returned (with a new trainer) he got smoked by an Aqueduct allowance horse and a Derby also-ran in his comeback. In his second start, he got drilled by--you can't make this up--another Bay Meadows horse who possibly would have taken it to him in the El Camino Real Derby if he hadn't been injured himself in 1998.

Event of the Year found the winner's circle in the Strub, beating a European money-burner making his first career dirt start and an ex-all weather Euro that had been an also ran in that same '98 Derby. To his credit, Event of the Year did split the great grays Free House and Silver Charm in the '99 Big Cap. Of course, both were retired within 1-2 starts of that race and Event of the Year himself never ran again.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

No, the thread was about how little buzz there is considering that the winners of those three major preps will all be undefeated if Concert Tour wins. I just threw in the Jeff Ruby thing for fun.

Take it from a Pro...Once Rollo has determined you are heading to the woodshed the best thing to do is take your beating like a man

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Take it from a Pro...Once Rollo has determined you are heading to the woodshed the best thing to do is take your beating like a man

LOL. I love it though. So full of great information and sometimes, it makes you re-evaluate what you thought you knew.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

LOL. I love it though. So full of great information and sometimes, it makes you re-evaluate what you thought you knew.

Crappy Nephrologist but when it comes to horses few sharper