Top 10 BC perfomances (last 10 years)

[Gauchos0522]

Originally Posted by Secretariat

funny, i don't feel embarassed...

and thats not what i typed,
i said his performance was an average grade 1 WIN,
not that the BCc is an average grade 1 RACE,

we need to see past his cool blinker set and put his averageness into perspective.

he was not on the triple crown trail,
he was a sprinter that ran 3 or 4 routes in his entire life, and who took off months between these starts. this was before the detention tent too, i might add.

surely you cannot put this tiny career in comparison to the great horses such as secretariat, affimred, and seattle slew.
and to throw such accolades at an underserving horse such as this is a clear insult to those i afore mentioned.

These are valid points especially when comparing him to triple crown greats as you mentioned above. You were touting Pleasantly Perfect who also was very lightly raced during his 4 and 5 year old years which were his most productive. I believe GZ had 11 career starts while PP, who raced as a 5 year old also, had 18 career starts, 7 of them coming in MSW or ALW company. The point I am trying to make is that just because a horse was very unsound doesn't mean he is automatically overrated. PP only had 9 starts in his 2 best years while GZ had 8 so your stating that GZ took off months at a time is correct but so did a alot of other top notch handicap horses. Just because GZ wasn't sound doesn't mean that his complete domination in such fast times over so many distances are void. He was one of the best older horses we saw probably since Cigar (don't know if I am forgetting somebody) and toyed with the field in his classic win. BTW since your so into final times GZ ran his classic at LS in 1:59 flat and PP in 1:59 4/5 secs over a So Cal highway.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

A couple of things. Dayjur wouldn't " probably " have won, he WOULD have won, as the race was OVER.

Can't name them offhand, though for some reason I think the field was so bad that Deputy Commander took a reasonable amount of money, but the field Skip Away beat in 1997 was not " tremendous ", and may have been much closer to the worst Classic field ever. Perhaps you are thinking of the 1998 field, which was excellent, and Skip Away ran well, but lost.

As for Dancing Brave, and this is no slight to the winner, and others you mentioned, as they were VERY good, but he shipped extemely poorly and looked very bad that day. He simply did not run anything close to his race.

In retrospect, I think you are correct. Actually both 1996 and 1998 were very strong; what happened to all the big fig horses in 1997? Horses like Formal Gold must not've been in the race. In 96, Cigar could only manage third behind Alphabet Soup and Louie Quatorze. In 98 it was Awesome Again-Silver Charm-Swain. It was Swain's dirt debut but he was a very high quality European. Like Dayjur, Swain should've won the 1998 Classic. The 2000 Classic was pretty solid also. Other than Cigar, the 1995 Classic might've been the worst.

[Bigsmc]

Johannesburg in '01 would be in my top 10.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by JJP

In retrospect, I think you are correct. Actually both 1996 and 1998 were very strong; what happened to all the big fig horses in 1997? Horses like Formal Gold must not've been in the race. In 96, Cigar could only manage third behind Alphabet Soup and Louie Quatorze. In 98 it was Awesome Again-Silver Charm-Swain. It was Swain's dirt debut but he was a very high quality European. Like Dayjur, Swain should've won the 1998 Classic. The 2000 Classic was pretty solid also. Other than Cigar, the 1995 Classic might've been the worst.

The horses behind Cigar were not strong, though Concern and Soul of the Matter had their days, but I thought the field Black Tie Affair beat in 1991 was pretty weak. Plus, as Black Tie Affair was allowed to waltz along on the lead, the result was not very definitive to say the least.

Formal Gold broke down before the Classic ( after the Woodward I think ).

I guess the 1986 Classic may have been the worst. Precisionist was at the end and really wanted no part of 1 1/4. The track was speed favoring, and thus Turkoman ( who was very good ) was compromised, and Skywalker got the best " on the pace " trip. An unconvincing result.

[Gander]

Skip Away's performance is 1997 is tops on my list, but I am very bias because he'll always be one of my favorite horses of all time and I had a $1,500 win bet on him that day. The field he beat that day wasnt all that dazzling but the way he did it and the fact that he went on to become one of the biggest money earners of all time validates his brilliance.

I was against Ghostzapper at first, simply because he was raced so lightly but looking back I wont hold that against him. He was a spectacular moving machine. May have been one of the best I have ever seen run. His BC Classic performance was nothing more than a public paid workout. He pissed on that field which included another one of my favorites, Pleasantly Perfect, whom would have been second if not for the start and the horrible ride he was given by Bailey. I never thought Roses in May was all that great of a horse. He beat Perfect Drift in the Whitney (big deal, everybody does), and he beat hands down the worst field ever in the Dubai World Cup. As much as I loved Pleasantly Perfect, Ghostzapper was simply a better animal.

Honorable mentions include Artax and Kona Gold, who both beat great fields in their BC Sprint wins.

[Crown@club]

Val Royal's Mile Victory has always have me in awe. Apparently even with the guys here at work, I was the only one impressed by his victory.

[somerfrost]

I guess Tiznow goes to the top of my list...I'd put both of his wins right there. The best BC race ever, imo, was the great Personal Ensign in the 88 Distaff overcoming the impossible and running down Winning Colors in the slop of Churchill Downs to retire undefeated. She obviously hated the track that day and was hopelessly beaten turning for home, yet by the sheer force of her will she caught a very good front runner yards from the wire...

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by Secretariat

funny, i don't feel embarassed...

and thats not what i typed,
i said his performance was an average grade 1 WIN,
not that the BCc is an average grade 1 RACE,

we need to see past his cool blinker set and put his averageness into perspective.

he was not on the triple crown trail,
he was a sprinter that ran 3 or 4 routes in his entire life, and who took off months between these starts. this was before the detention tent too, i might add.

surely you cannot put this tiny career in comparison to the great horses such as secretariat, affimred, and seattle slew.
and to throw such accolades at an underserving horse such as this is a clear insult to those i afore mentioned.

What does "average grade 1 win" mean? I think any trainer would have taken that "average grade 1 win" for any race at any time(expect maybe against Secretariat at the Belmont!) Besides, no one is comparing him to all time greats on this thread, just his performance in the BC.. you can't seem to see past your bias against GZ to appreciate his extraordinary talent.

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

What does "average grade 1 win" mean? I think any trainer would have taken that "average grade 1 win" for any race at any time(expect maybe against Secretariat at the Belmont!) Besides, no one is comparing him to all time greats on this thread, just his performance in the BC.. you can't seem to see past your bias against GZ to appreciate his extraordinary talent.

If you have trouble putting "average grade 1 " into perspective, perhaps you should watch more races and develop an understanding for yourself.

he had no extra oridinary talent, my whole point,
just a lot of hype from people who look anywhere for a hero, deserving of the accolade or not.

the horse was NO where near triple crown ability,
at 3, or 4. he was just overhyped by people looking for an escape, and there was Gz. well lets pick him, he has cool headgear, nothing more to it than that.

Originally Posted by Gauchos0522

These are valid points especially when comparing him to triple crown greats as you mentioned above. You were touting Pleasantly Perfect who also was very lightly raced during his 4 and 5 year old years which were his most productive. I believe GZ had 11 career starts while PP, who raced as a 5 year old also, had 18 career starts, 7 of them coming in MSW or ALW company. The point I am trying to make is that just because a horse was very unsound doesn't mean he is automatically overrated. PP only had 9 starts in his 2 best years while GZ had 8 so your stating that GZ took off months at a time is correct but so did a alot of other top notch handicap horses. Just because GZ wasn't sound doesn't mean that his complete domination in such fast times over so many distances are void. He was one of the best older horses we saw probably since Cigar (don't know if I am forgetting somebody) and toyed with the field in his classic win. BTW since your so into final times GZ ran his classic at LS in 1:59 flat and PP in 1:59 4/5 secs over a So Cal highway.

and while your comparison of the two track records is digestable and valid, it lacks a conclusion.
Pleasantly perfect who's Bcc time was 4/5th 's of a second slower than Gz's..this is true but,
PP enjoys to this day, spot number five on the alltime lifetime on track earnings list with 7.8 million dollars. the true test of worth, currency.
Gz, unfortunately does not bode to high on this list though.

[Gauchos0522]

Originally Posted by Secretariat

If you have trouble putting "average grade 1 " into perspective, perhaps you should watch more races and develop an understanding for yourself.

he had no extra oridinary talent, my whole point,
just a lot of hype from people who look anywhere for a hero, deserving of the accolade or not.

the horse was NO where near triple crown ability,
at 3, or 4. he was just overhyped by people looking for an escape, and there was Gz. well lets pick him, he has cool headgear, nothing more to it than that.

No one said anything about him being triple crown ability or anything associated with the triple crown. This horse completley dominated especially in his 4 year old season with the only race he almost was beat was when saint liam took him 15 wide into the turn in the woodward. Saint Liam was so spent form that effort he skipped the classic also! GZ went on to demolish a field at the BC including your beloved PP. This statement about his blinkers is a complete joke. He was dominanant even when he was beaten he was spectacular. Look at his King's Bishop as a 3 year old.

[Gauchos0522]

Originally Posted by Secretariat

and while your comparison of the two track records is digestable and valid, it lacks a conclusion.
Pleasantly perfect who's Bcc time was 4/5th 's of a second slower than Gz's..this is true but,
PP enjoys to this day, spot number five on the alltime lifetime on track earnings list with 7.8 million dollars. the true test of worth, currency.
Gz, unfortunately does not bode to high on this list though.

And Perfect Drift has made 4.5 million while refusing to win races blah blah. GZ made 3.5 million in 7 less starts and was way less sound than PP. Money earned is great for the owners but for us bettors I'll bet the better horse not the one who has made more money over his career.

Originally Posted by Gauchos0522

No one said anything about him being triple crown ability or anything associated with the triple crown. This horse completley dominated especially in his 4 year old season with the only race he almost was beat was when saint liam took him 15 wide into the turn in the woodward. Saint Liam was so spent form that effort he skipped the classic also! GZ went on to demolish a field at the BC including your beloved PP. This statement about his blinkers is a complete joke. He was dominanant even when he was beaten he was spectacular. Look at his King's Bishop as a 3 year old.

what season, ?? huh ??

three races hardly makes a season,
just a fragile horse that could or could not have been doped before the Bcc because no one was testing then. and the statement about his blinkers is dead on right. in dealing with the public thats about how far as they can see.

i like the 4 horse, i like his headgear, i will bet him.. gee he won, he is the greatest.
see the 4 horse, he is a pretty horse, he is the greatest. jeez you give too much credit to the mind
of the general bettor.

Originally Posted by Gauchos0522

And Perfect Drift has made 4.5 million while refusing to win races blah blah. GZ made 3.5 million in 7 less starts and was way less sound than PP. Money earned is great for the owners but for us bettors I'll bet the better horse not the one who has made more money over his career.

PP was not more sound than Gz.
excluded form the BCc in 2002 because of bleeding issues, completely missed his 4 year old season due to leg injuries. don't make this about me and PP, this is about Gz and his overhyped ability.

by now you should have come into contact with the futileness of your argument and are starting to realize just what an average horse Gz really is.
so your next post will undoubtedly be attacking me,
since your arguments lack the credibilty you at one time thought that they had.

[Gauchos0522]

Originally Posted by Secretariat

what season, ?? huh ??

three races hardly makes a season,
just a fragile horse that could or could not have been doped before the Bcc because no one was testing then. and the statement about his blinkers is dead on right. in dealing with the public thats about how far as they can see.

i like the 4 horse, i like his headgear, i will bet him.. gee he won, he is the greatest.
see the 4 horse, he is a pretty horse, he is the greatest. jeez you give too much credit to the mind
of the general bettor.

"Few horses have devastated their opponents in so many ways, at so many distances, and in such fast times."--Steve Haskin
I don't know about you but along with Crist, Haskin is one of the most highly regarded writers/fans of the buisness. He states it perfectly....the horse completley dominated.

[Gauchos0522]

Originally Posted by Secretariat

PP was not more sound than Gz.
excluded form the BCc in 2002 because of bleeding issues, completely missed his 4 year old season due to leg injuries. don't make this about me and PP, this is about Gz and his overhyped ability.

by now you should have come into contact with the futileness of your argument and are starting to realize just what an average horse Gz really is.
so your next post will undoubtedly be attacking me,
since your arguments lack the credibilty you at one time thought that they had.

I just don't understand how you can call his ability overhyped when all he did was win at the highest level when he competed. I understand he was unsound and all that but when he ran he put on a show by dominating his opponets.

Originally Posted by Gauchos0522

"Few horses have devastated their opponents in so many ways, at so many distances, and in such fast times."--Steve Haskin
I don't know about you but along with Crist, Haskin is one of the most highly regarded writers/fans of the buisness. He states it perfectly....the horse completley dominated.

he must have fallen for the cool head gear no doubt, because he was not that dominant.
he sprinted at three and faced the same horses numerous times. and at 4 his carrer was over in a few races, hardly dominance.

The son of Dynaformer, Perfect Drift, however, has the careeer of dominance. to persist into your seventh year and still come within a nose of a grade 1 win is a sign of a complete animal dominating his profession. A flash in the pan is just that, a momentary flash,.momentary and dominant do not go in the same sentence as sequtiors, rather opposites.

[Gauchos0522]

Originally Posted by Secretariat

he must have fallen for the cool head gear no doubt, because he was not that dominant.
he sprinted at three and faced the same horses numerous times. and at 4 his carrer was over in a few races, hardly dominance.

The son of Dynaformer, Perfect Drift, however, has the careeer of dominance. to persist into your seventh year and still come within a nose of a grade 1 win is a sign of a complete animal dominating his profession. A flash in the pan is just that, a momentary flash,.momentary and dominant do not go in the same sentence as sequtiors, rather opposites.

Wow Perfect Drift dominant. Longevity and mney machine yes but dominant no. Plus GZ destroyed him in the 2004 classic. And yes Haskin fell for the blinkers...now this is getting foolish.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by 1st_Saturday_in_May

Zapper's #1 in my book. 1:59.02, and he'd have gone much quicker had anyone challenged. Beat Roses in May, Pleastanly Perfect, Birdstone, Perfect Drift, etc. sooooo easily

It seems like Ghostzapper is drawing a lot of attention on this thread. I had him at #4 and given the ease with which he beat a top-notch field, I think it could be rasonably argued that the performance should be as high as #2. But #1? In my opinion it just does not make sense to rate his performance ahead of Inside Information's in the Distaff. For me she is the clear cut winner here.

For those who are criticizing Ghostzapper, I wasn't saying he was one of the greatest horses of all time, just that his performance in the BC was one of the best in the last 10 years. For example, some could argue that Volponi's easy win in the classic should be on the list, but nobody would say Volponi was a an all-time great horse.

[zippyneedsawin]

Originally Posted by Secretariat

he must have fallen for the cool head gear no doubt, because he was not that dominant.
he sprinted at three and faced the same horses numerous times. and at 4 his carrer was over in a few races, hardly dominance.

The son of Dynaformer, Perfect Drift, however, has the careeer of dominance. to persist into your seventh year and still come within a nose of a grade 1 win is a sign of a complete animal dominating his profession. A flash in the pan is just that, a momentary flash,.momentary and dominant do not go in the same sentence as sequtiors, rather opposites.

You had no creditability to begin with, now you're the mayor of MORONVILLE.
Saying Perfect Drift has had a career of dominace!?! No disrespect top PD who's had a nice career gaining earnings by hitting the board in many G1's, but you have to WIN races to be considered dominant. GZ did that. You don't like GZ and YOU believe GZ is "overhyped," that's fine. Just back up your statements with something that makes sense.. Have fun, mayor.