NCLB-Education

[Downthestretch55]

I'll just say that I spent my early teaching career involved in art education,
something that helped children unleash their creativity.
Later, I taught elementary grades, including 3rd.
I came across this article, and just want to share it. It gives voice to some of the issues that have compromised the "educational system".
Please read it before you comment. Thanks.
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/47670/

DTS

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

I'll just say that I spent my early teaching career involved in art education,
something that helped children unleash their creativity.
Later, I taught elementary grades, including 3rd.
I came across this article, and just want to share it. It gives voice to some of the issues that have compromised the "educational system".
Please read it before you comment. Thanks.
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/47670/

DTS

I may be wrong but standardized tests were used long before George Bush came around

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I may be wrong but standardized tests were used long before George Bush came around

Cannon Shell,
You are correct.
In my early years of teaching, they were used for "placement" in appropriate programs, remediation, enrichment, ect. (Child centered)
The emphasis now is on accountability, and meeting certain levels to justify funding.
The focus has changed from what had previously been to determine what was in the best eduacational ineterests of the student, to measuring the quality of the educational institution and therein justifying the expense to the taxpayers that fund it. ( payer centered)

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

I'll just say that I spent my early teaching career involved in art education,
something that helped children unleash their creativity.
Later, I taught elementary grades, including 3rd.
I came across this article, and just want to share it. It gives voice to some of the issues that have compromised the "educational system".
Please read it before you comment. Thanks.
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/47670/

DTS

DTS: In Parochial schools in 50's I was given standardized tests, so the deficiency continues into the new millenium(?). This is such an immense subject that the story fails to address. So what if a 3rd grader is confused about where honey comes from?...isn't that question best answered in science class anyway? Please don't forget that it's the parents that want their kids to be tested correctly, as to guage their preparedness for further education. On the new generation of test takers..welcome to GenX...they're here now,unable to fill out a job app properly and looking for riches and an easy life dangled before them by media and merchants. The people coming out of college now are seeing the reality of the job market(got to have the degree, but you'll be starting at 25,000 a yr) The article doesnt give any solutions, but has a shoddy crack at the Bush Admin...portraying it as not wanting the succeeding generations to be able to think. NO..thats the Democrats reminding us that we're too stupid to think, so let us take care of THAT for you! I don't think so,friend!

[Danzig]

kids in my class filled in the bubbles (cat test-short for california achievement test, do NOT write in test book-here's a graham cracker) to make pretty designs. look, a kite. i made a diamond. mine goes in and out....

i don't know what needs to happen to fix our public school system--altho, have to say after raising three kids that they've done pretty well-my three kids that is. but i did what i could to fill the gaps in their learning, the right books, right t.v., etc. stayed involved.

i think that's the biggest problem facing schools-no involvement from most parents. they expect the school to do it all-and i think that's impossible.

by the same token, there has to be some way to make sure kids are on track-if not testing, then what?

In this country, ever since I can remember, our educational system has been in crisis. If you look at almost every school that is large and does poorly on standardized tests, they very often are located in large urban areas with a low socioeconomic status. If you look at the families in these areas, the majority are broken with mom at the head and working... or worse.

So of course it is the school's fault and the teachers, administrators... down the line. Now ask yourself, these people in the public schools, why are they teaching? Its not the pay in most cases. Where do some of the most experienced, best teachers go? To schools that have a strong desire to be successful. Where are a majority of these schools located? IN COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE PARENTS THAT CARE ABOUT EDUCATION.
There are always exceptions, but these are not magical observations. Now occasionally you will get some outstanding inner city staff come in and do a wonderful job. But when you take a close look at the kids and parents you find the "clients" are people care about the education of their children. Bad teachers and poor scores are not accepted.

The teacher in East LA, Stand and Deliver??? that taught all his kids Calculus on Saturdays and did an amazing job. How long did he last in that situation? Does anyone remember that movie? Does anyone remember the little side theme about his wife never seeing her husband, and his children feeling jealous of the kids he brought to his house to teach on weekends.
Jaime does not teach there anymore... I think he may have lasted 2 maybe 3 years.

The horrible battle zone schools often "attract" the worst teachers by default, or worse, the young inexperienced "I will save these children" teachers that are gone after two years never to step in a classroom again.

I dont know what it takes to wake people up to these obvious signs. Oh yes I do, everyone went to school, so obviously everyone knows how to teach, and everyone is an expert on our system because of course they were in our educational system.

I just feel sorry for the kids who are born into "families" that never experienced any success through learning.

[Downthestretch55]

Thank you all for your insights and comments.
As I previously stated, it seems that the reasoning for testing has shifted from diagnosis of educational needs of learners to accountability for educational institutions.
Creativity and creative problem solving are not easily taught, though in my humble view, that is where current and future needs of our society should be
considered.

[GenuineRisk]

Timm, the Gen Xers are now in their 30's. You need to throw out your old copies of TIME and Newsweek and get a new subscription- I think the last cover story on Gen Xers happened around 1994. When we were still just getting out of college. Which was over ten years ago. I myself have been gainfully employed in one way or another since I was 13.

Pgardn, I think while parents have a huge influence on their kids's success at school, I also think it's easy to disregard the fact that public schools are tied to property taxes and because of this, schools in rich areas will always have more money than schools in poor areas and will always perform better. If we want inner-city schools to perform better, we should abolish this inherently unfair system of school funding. Many of the schools here in NYC have been shut down at points due to being unsafe. And many of them have crumbling ceilings, broken bathrooms, water leaks, etc. I would find it hard to learn in some of the schools I've visited. I think there's only so much even a passionate, dedicated teacher can do, and only so much a poor parent can do when the school is unsafe, underfunded, etc. Today, our off-site theater program came back from a public school that had to be closed today because there was no heat. For the second time this week. No heat, no kids, no show for the actors here, and no education today.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Oddly, most union members are against accountability...amazing! Not that it will cure the problem, but it doesn't seem like a bad thing.

One problem, many causes. Focusing on one is like trying to nail jello to a wall.

As a union member, I agree that accountability is not in and of itself a bad thing, and I think it's too hard to get bad teachers out and for that I blame the union, but I think the NCLB just puts even more focus on test scores, and school just becomes about tests, not on learning. Lord knows high test scores show nothing other than an ability to take tests. I got a 1400 on my SATs first time out (didn't bother to take again after that) and it's been of, let's see.... um... yep, absolutely no use in my life.

I agree with you there are many causes, though. I think fixing it would take politicians willing to sacrifice their re-electibility because big change takes a while to show it's working and they'd have to be willing to be very unpopular while the change happens. And that would happen the third Thursday from NEVER.

[randallscott35]

You think it doesn't bother me if my union supports a teacher I know isn't doing their job? B/c it bothers me to no end. I chalk unions up to a "necessary evil."...The reason I can post right now is b/c I eat lunch in my room, usually helping kids or working on stuff for the afternoon. The teachers' room is a snake pit and I stay out of it....But I would say more than 3/4 of the people I work with are good and dedicated.

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Not that I think most bad teachers want to be bad...I think their education may be lacking as well (and to be fair, I base this on my step-father who mentored many young teachers and often wondered what exactly they were being taught in colleges (as well as the few younger teachers I had in HS) - its not that the teachers cannot understand the materials, but their education insofar as reaching students is severely lacking).

Almost all the teachers in our science dept. have a masters degree in their subject area (I have one in biochemistry but teach Physics, the odd-ball) and never intended to teach. They teach because they like the kids and the material and they are good at it, otherwise our principal would not have them here. Our principal scours the landscape for the rare people that can teach and are qualified. The pay just does not draw the best and the brightest. But they are out there, just hard to find.
So my school is just an individual example like your father-in-law, both are oversimplifications and ancedotal. And not all states have teacher's Unions. THis may be a reason a scarce few in our state government acutally know what goes on in schools. They do not want, or take any feed back. And if we gave most of our legislators the Science or Math test that the kids have to take to graduate High School, they would fail it. I know that. So I understand Randall's position.
And if you put the best and the brightest teachers, in a sorry place to teach... you have probably produce a very cynical people who will never step foot in a school again. This has and always will be a very complex problem that mirrors the haves, and the have nots, of our society. And the gap grows.

And GR... throwing money into a failing urban school will not solve the ultimate problem that I dont know how to solve... The family structure. Been there done that in this city. You have a very pretty school with a lot of good teachers to start with that crumbles. This is what I have seen, unless the parents are highly involved.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Of course, I realize that there are many teachers that it bothers. Doesn't change the fact that the union does what it does...year after year. If most members were like you (or GR), it seems to me that there would be a change in union leadership and policy that would make things better for the good teachers and ultimately the students.

Not that I think most bad teachers want to be bad...I think their education may be lacking as well (and to be fair, I base this on my step-father who mentored many young teachers and often wondered what exactly they were being taught in colleges (as well as the few younger teachers I had in HS) - its not that the teachers cannot understand the materials, but their education insofar as reaching students is severely lacking).

I hear ya Baba.... Trust me, tenure is a double edged sword for some people. Out 50 or 60 people I work with I can only think of a handful who shouldn't have gotten tenure or should be out now. The problem is, if you have an administration who makes a mistake on somebody, they are around for 25 years so its important you keep those to a minimum....So an administration is key to keeping the staff focused and able.

[GenuineRisk]

I'm sorry - I should clarify- I'm a union member, but of the actor's union. so while I am in general a supporter of unions, I do also think in the attempt to protect members from abuse, unions can also become a way for a small number of people who aren't good at their jobs to keep them. (And don't get me started on the lack of any sort of power the actors' unions have). I don't have the authority or knowledge to speak on the teacher's union in specifics the way Randall does.

B- I agree that throwing money at a problem is not usually a solution, but we're talking about schools where the kids are starting the year without textbooks. I'm not kidding- many of the educators my job came from public school jobs that they fled within a few years. Now, how is concerned parental support going to make up for a lack of textbooks? The property tax-school tax connection inherently institutionalizes an unequal playing field for what is supposed to be an equal right.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

Once again, you are confusing rights with privileges.

I believe most states guarantee free public education. If it's guaranteed, how does that make it a "privilege?" Yes, I know kids can be expelled, but I believe they must then go to another school, yes?

If anything, you could argue it's not a right; it's a requirement, as I believe kids are required by law to attend school of some sort from age 5 until 16.

I'm starting to think your definition of "rights" is whatever you want to believe "rights" are. if free education is guaranteed by law, how is that a "privilege?"

The scary part about this to me is that our democratic system needs to have a significant number of educated people in order to function. The gap grows, the democracy becomes more unstable. I really dont like that trend.

So we need to do our best to help educate every child in the US. It is in our national interest. It should make everyone in this country uneasy if the % of uneducated adults continues to grow.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

OK, after fully recovering from the near blackout...

Yes, some states (if not all? ) do provide for free public education (see, Im fair and willing to look stuff up).

GR, since I am short on time (and I can connect the dots if needed...but you seem smart enough), simply use a similar thought to your rationale wrt your defense of the "equality" of progressive taxation (equality...progressive - talk about oxymoron! ) and apply it to the situation here.

First of all, what's with the "my dear" in your earlier response to me? What are you, my 85-year-old grandfather? What next, you give me a quarter for candy and then put your thumb between your fingers and tell me you've stolen my nose? Geez louise.

B, we will have to agree to disagree on how we see the taxation thing, because, as I've said, people are all taxed equally; it's the money that is taxed differently. My pathetic below 40K income is taxed at exactly the same rate as Gates' first less-than-40K income. What is taxed more is the amount he makes above that. And if I made more, that amount of money would be taxed accordingly.

So what are you saying, Bababooyee? You don't think Americans should provide public education for our young people? What's your obsession with determining whether it's a right or a privilege? What does that have to do with school performance? You think it's unfair for poor kids to get an education? Is that what you're saying?

[GenuineRisk]

Editorial on rights from the Fort Wayne... Telegraph? Gazette? Journal? Mostly on second-hand smoke and laws, but some more general thoughts as well:

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journal...l/16566691.htm

Doesn't have anything to do with NCLB, however.

[GenuineRisk]

And the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights, from 1948.

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Bababooyee

I think it was supposed to be funny...I was woozy from shoveling snow for over an hour and had low blood sugar. Looks conry now, but cest la vie. Either way, lighten up.

Sorry, I don't get Old Man humor so well yet. Consider me lightened. And what does "conry" mean? I'm not familiar with the term. Old people word?

Like I said, I am accepting that for the purpose of this argument, and like I said, use a similar rationale and you can defend disparity in school quality based on disparity in property taxes paid. Like I said, I think you can connect the dots from here.

I have no idea what you are saying here. I was saying that to put blame for failing schools entirely on parents, without taking into account the inherent inequality in funding when school funding is based on property taxes, is not accurate. As a renter, I pay no property (read, school) taxes, and frankly, I should. I benefit from an educated populace, too.

Depends.

On what? That's no answer.

It is not an obsession. There is an important distinction (legally and philosophically) between the two. The fact that you want them to be the same (even really, really bad) doesn't make it so. And that you seem unwilling to explore the differences and remain in the dark is your problem, not mine.

Feel better now?

No, because you didn't answer the question. But seeing as how I still don't know if you answered my question from months ago about Israel and the religious right, I guess I should expect this?

Bababooyee, the only thing that will keep society continuing to progress is people being willing to say that something, even if not enshrined yet in the Constitution, is a right. And if that something is morally correct, chances are, it will become one. I think people do have a right to an education, just as anti-slavery advocates once thought people had a right to be free. And suffragists once thought women had a right to a vote. Those didn't start as rights, but they became them. If we all shrugged, and said "Well, it's not in the Constitution as it stands now" and no one was willing to say, "But it should be" then I'd not be voting and Condi Rice, who many of you conservatives are touting on another board as Presidential caliber, would be calling Bush "Massah" instead of his wife calling her "Dr. Rice."

And sometimes we screw up (see Amendments 18 and 21 of the Constitution) but we must always be willing to work for it.

Education isn't a cure-all for society's ills, but it helps to level the playing field a bit. I'm all for it.

(If you did get around to the Israel thing, let me know and my apologies for missing that the thread had been updated)

[GenuineRisk]

And mondo apologies for being a complete moron at trying to put my responses in between quotes. I wish they'd taught me how to do that during my free education years...