Crazy Ideas

Originally Posted by paisjpq

you refuse to listen to the very sound data that riot has presented

with all due respect, read my response. Where did you get the refuse to "listen" read what he had posted?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

I think they should start racing yearlings.

Anything to help make the cards fill better!

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I love the posters that post factually inaccurate information, and then when professionals expose its flaws, play the martyr act.

That's the stuff I love!

No you dont. Read your own posts.

The martyr act... Just a bit of an exaggeration.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Never said this is how they only get hurt.

I said two year olds are still developing and to run them in races increases the probability of injury. And yes they do recover quicker, for the same reason they get injured, they are still growing. Same in humans.

ANd the money is the main reason why they are on the track at this age. It aint for their health and longevity.

3 year olds are still developing and 4 year olds too. The only thing that I may think that you are correct about is that they stretch the races out for 2 year olds too soon. I have asked every racing secretary that I know why they dont offer more opportunities going short in the fall for the horses that were behind schedule. Why shouldn't a horse that starts off in October be able to get some racing experience at 5 furlongs like the precocious one do. I must admit that this idea was someone elses who is much more qualified than me to have ideas about racehorses.

[Cajungator26]

I think that racing two year olds in shorter distance races is probably beneficial to them. I used to be under the same thinking as Pgardn (because I'm from a hunter/jumper background), but after seeing the studies done in regards to young thoroughbreds and what is needed for proper bone development, I changed my mind. I am concerned about racing two year olds in races like the BC Juvy (for example.) I'm not sure that it's good for them to be under a hard gallop for that long...

Didn't someone post on here (maybe Pais?) that they didn't start a young horse until their knees were closed? That was always my main concern.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

You are correct.

What about shoving everything back a year? When the horses have developed. Run the TC races at 4... Cool no? And better for the animals.

But there would be a cost, to start with. The title of the thread is crazy ideas. I dont think this is actually that crazy. Just thinking about the animals at the expense of money for a year.

A wise man told me about a rich guy who tried this idea back in the 60's. The guy bred and raised his own horses, left them in the field until the summer of their 3 year old year before they were broke. He then waited until 4 to run them. Guess what happened? They all popped splints and bucked shins like 2 year olds!

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

A wise man told me about a rich guy who tried this idea back in the 60's. The guy bred and raised his own horses, left them in the field until the summer of their 3 year old year before they were broke. He then waited until 4 to run them. Guess what happened? They all popped splints and bucked shins like 2 year olds!

cept they don't heal as fast, or as sound as if it had happened at 2!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

Read again.

I said two year olds need to run. They will run on their own for gosh sakes.

RACES... Where they cant stop when they should be stopped.

You do understand that horses are not peple and we cant train them forever without them getting hurt. It is just not practical to train horses for a year or 6 months and not run them. They dont have an off button that we can push when we want to shut them off. Plus racing experience helps horseslearn the game. Anyone who has trained horses knows that the older a horse gets the harder it is to get them out of bad habits.

[Riot]

I have asked every racing secretary that I know why they dont offer more opportunities going short in the fall for the horses that were behind schedule. Why shouldn't a horse that starts off in October be able to get some racing experience at 5 furlongs like the precocious one do.

Good question. Ever get any answers?

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

3 year olds are still developing and 4 year olds too. The only thing that I may think that you are correct about is that they stretch the races out for 2 year olds too soon. I have asked every racing secretary that I know why they dont offer more opportunities going short in the fall for the horses that were behind schedule. Why shouldn't a horse that starts off in October be able to get some racing experience at 5 furlongs like the precocious one do. I must admit that this idea was someone elses who is much more qualified than me to have ideas about racehorses.

Nah Im a reactionary with no knowlege because I dont own a two year old from afar.

Two year olds go through some much more significant changes. Only reason this is even brought up. Yearlings undergo even greater changes. But they are clearly not physically mature to the naked eye so of course they are not on the track. And I think if people did try to race horses as yearlings their would be an outcry. But for a horse that looks physically mature but has a lot of critical development going on... I think this has weighed upon owners and trainers that care. And I realize some two year olds mature a lot faster. Its individual. I personally dont like the BC two year old races which is where this whole thing started.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Good question. Ever get any answers?

Just the usual mumbling you get from racing secretaries. Not that I am knocking them because that is an impossible job.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You do understand that horses are not peple and we cant train them forever without them getting hurt. It is just not practical to train horses for a year or 6 months and not run them. They dont have an off button that we can push when we want to shut them off. Plus racing experience helps horseslearn the game. Anyone who has trained horses knows that the older a horse gets the harder it is to get them out of bad habits.

I understand this. But has there ever been a thought of running two year olds in races that are not bet on? My problem is a good many two year olds are pushed in a race after their form has completely broken down because there is money on them and the finish line approaches. I have watched this.

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I understand this. But has there ever been a thought of running two year olds in races that are not bet on? My problem is a good many two year olds are pushed in a race after their form has completely broken down because there is money on them and the finish line approaches. I have watched this.

pretty sure the baby races that are held in Aiken every year are a non-betting affair but I could be wrong.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I understand this. But has there ever been a thought of running two year olds in races that are not bet on? My problem is a good many two year olds are pushed in a race after their form has completely broken down because there is money on them and the finish line approaches. I have watched this.

This is true for horses of all ages.

Betting creates money for purses, purses help pay people's expenses, without one you don't get the other.

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

A wise man told me about a rich guy who tried this idea back in the 60's. The guy bred and raised his own horses, left them in the field until the summer of their 3 year old year before they were broke. He then waited until 4 to run them. Guess what happened? They all popped splints and bucked shins like 2 year olds!

I am not saying not to run them. I have typed this numerous times. Competitively... with money... after they are fried because they are in the money not far from the finish.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

This is true for horses of all ages.

But it is not more detrimental for two year olds?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by pgardn

I understand this. But has there ever been a thought of running two year olds in races that are not bet on? My problem is a good many two year olds are pushed in a race after their form has completely broken down because there is money on them and the finish line approaches. I have watched this.

The truth is that when racing 2 year olds, financially it is more important to cull your horses that cant run instead of actually earning any money by racing them. Something like 11% of the purse money is for 2 year olds. It just makes the process too long and costly to be holding onto horses for 3 years before they have any chance to earn. The training expense will kill you.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by pgardn

But it is not more detrimental for two year olds?

According to the experts in this thread it is not.

[Riot]

But for a horse that looks physically mature but has a lot of critical development going on... I think its a tough call for caring owners.

I don't, not for "caring" owners. Just say no.

Racing used to be considered sport, now it's considered business, no escaping that.

Anybody who gets into it (and I hope to, to a greater extent over the next 10 years) simply has to decide where they stand regarding such issues ... how much money are you prepared to lose by owning race horses? How long will you last in the sport at that rate of loss?

I think one key to betterment of racing for the horses, lays in involving people with less money in the sport, through fun, racing partnerships - not prospectus-laden, low-cost "investment" deals.

If my current racing stable, consisting of three tail hairs on a filly named Sumwonlovesyou , goes belly up, I'm out nothing, I'm still in the sport, and there is no overriding financial incentive for me to do anything not in the best interests of the horse, all the time.

Not true if I have the attitude that the money I have invested is not disposable. Successful people, who have made millions at their business, and who now get into the horse business, fully expect this business to be profitable for them, too.

Surprise! Racing is still a sport!

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

According to the experts in this thread it is not.

So there is a study or clear statement I have missed that states: when two year olds are pushed hard after losing form in competitive races (not training), completely exhausted, have no more risk of injury than 3 or 4 year olds that are undergoing the same scenario.