Cigar was the best horse in the last 30 years

[smuthg]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Spectacular Bid was 24-for-24, with 14 Grade 1 wins, and numerous track record between the distances of 7-to-10 furlongs. He also had the record for fastest Ragozin sheet figure ever run for over 23 years.

Cigar is certainly not in the top five horses to have raced in the last thirty years.

Thirty years is a bit much, but over the last 25 years I think the list of horses who could beat Cigar's "A" game is pretty slim...

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I'm not going to carry on with this all night, but let's take a look:

I was at the Gold Cup that he lost to Skip Away. Great race. I haven't seen a crowd that size at a Gold Cup since. Where'd those fans go?

Cigar ran in the Mass Cap, too. I see that Suffolk has thrived since.

A great horse brings out fans... on the day he or she runs at the local racetrack.

I don't think that is entirely true. It took Smarty Jones to make me take note of how interesting and multifaceted the sport is...I know a few who got involved by seeing the Afleet Alex story. We all have our hook...

Top stars do have an impact.

[miraja2]

Cigar was a very good horse. But if I had to go with the best horse in the last 30 years I would go with Affirmed. I just think this horse is VERY underrated. He is typically ranked lower than Seattle Slew or The Bid, but in my opinion he should rank slightly higher than those two. He certainly ranks much higher than Cigar or Skip Away.
The reason why is the quality of competition these horses faced.
Affirmed faced more top quality horses, more often, than any other horse to run in the last 30 years, and yet he still managed 22 wins and 5 places from 29 lifetime starts. He beat Spectacular Bid. He faced horses like Seattle Slew and Exceller multiple times. Coastal and Sensitive Prince were both tremendous horses that couldn't contend with Affirmed. And then of course, Alydar. Most horses in the last thirty years have NEVER faced a horse of Alydar's quality, let alone race against him countless times as Affirmed did.
Despite facing this unbelievable competition, Affirmed was Champion 2yo, Champion 3yo, Champion Older horse, Triple Crown winner, and 2-time HOY.
Despite his lack of success against Slew - which the only real knock on him - I would rank him #1 in the last 30 years.

[ELA]

I've always found the "who did he beat" or "he didn't beat anybody" arguement very interesting. I am not only talking about Cigar here. If you have a sound horse, pick easy spots, beat mediocre horses, get these visually impressive victories over lower quality horses, and so on -- sure, I can see some credence in the "he didn't beat anybody" claim. However, on the contrary -- if you show up to the big dances, dance after dance, take on all comers (whoever else shows up and you have no control over that), beat them, beat them again, something along these lines -- then the "who did he beat" or "he didn't beat anybody" arguement, in my mind, has very little, perhaps no, credibility.

Now, about Cigar -- without getting into the stats and going through the PP's line by line/race by race -- this horse raced, raced and raced over the course of what? 2 years? I mean, in 95 didn't he race 10 times, and something like 8 G1's? Did he duck anybody in that campaign? You want to say it was a "weak crop" -- well, that's kind of like a weak jab in a fight. I mean you could say it, but how much are we really talking about here.


I remember him when he debuted as a 4yo, which I think was his first start for Bill Mott. That was kind of like a throwout year because they kept him on the turf for his first 3 or 4 starts. He didn't do much. But late in the year, when Mott put him back on the dirt, that's when the fun really started, LOL. I think his next start and last start of the year was the NY Mile and he trounced Devil His Due. Anyway, aside from the walk down memory lane, during his 5yo year, he took on whoever showed up, he himself showed up coast to coast and I don't remember them ducking anyone.

Regardless, he had a tough campaign. That year was no walk in the park. I don't remember any freshners or vacations for him. He raced 9 times going into the BC (and I think every one of them were G1's -- right? I don't remember off the top of my head).

Once again -- he showed up.

What did Tom Durkin say . . . "the incomparable, the invincible, the unbeatable Cigar!!!"

Eric

[miraja2]

I think when it comes to ranking horses (which is obviously very arbitrary) it only makes sense to look at who they beat as ONE factor. It certainly isn't the only factor, but it does matter. It certainly isn't Cigar's connections fault that he didn't face top-notch competition. As yo say ELA, they weren't ducking anyone. There wasn't anybody to duck. But still, if you are going to compare him to a horse like Affirmed I think it only makes sense to compare the horses that Affirmed beat (like Spectacular Bid, Exceller, and Alydar) with the horses that Cigar beat. I think this comparison gives a clear edge to Affirmed.
I don't think it makes any sense to ignore the level of competition.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Cardus

I'm not going to carry on with this all night, but let's take a look:

I was at the Gold Cup that he lost to Skip Away. Great race. I haven't seen a crowd that size at a Gold Cup since. Where'd those fans go?

Cigar ran in the Mass Cap, too. I see that Suffolk has thrived since.

A great horse brings out fans... on the day he or she runs at the local racetrack.

Disagree....you can debate all night long the merit of Cigar vs others, but how can you limit what it means getting people to the track? How do you know where those fans went? I saw Cigar at Arlington in that made for TV race and it was incredible. How many rock stars horses actually exist? Or existed? That could be another string on it's own.
Fast forward ten or eleven years...If he was running now and not "positioning" himself for races, what would it be like? We are gaga over SS but who would win that match race?

[jerseybred]

Originally Posted by Cardus

What fans did he bring to the sport? Aside from attendance figures for the Derby, Preakness, Breeders' Cup, and opening days at Del Mar and Saratoga, where are the fans brought to the sport by Cigar?

"Brought new fans to the sport" is a throwaway line.

in his day he may have not brought new fans to the sport ... but after his day... and after seeing him at the horse park in kentucky & after watching his replays he brought a newfound respect to the sport 16 times over... at least for me anyway.

[disappearingdan_akaplaya]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

IMO Holy Bull was a better horse than Cigar. As was Ghostzapper, Mineshaft, Formal Gold and Skip Away.

LOL@ the might mineshaft who ducked the big 1@anita(well connections did) and who only prevailed in 5 horse fields, and got worked in large ones against the likes of BS and PD

[letswastemoney]

Originally Posted by GBBob

Disagree....you can debate all night long the merit of Cigar vs others, but how can you limit what it means getting people to the track? How do you know where those fans went? I saw Cigar at Arlington in that made for TV race and it was incredible. How many rock stars horses actually exist? Or existed? That could be another string on it's own.
Fast forward ten or eleven years...If he was running now and not "positioning" himself for races, what would it be like? We are gaga over SS but who would win that match race?

Only Funny Cide has matched Cigar's "rock star" status

[Riot]

Afleet Alex, Funny Cide, Barbaro - horse racing is suddenly becoming very, very cool again.

If the sport would only take advantage of the groundswell, and get some readily accessible major network TV deals at this point in time!

They ignored TV in the 1950's, and eventually lost out to football, and now NASCAR.

Edit: and I just remembered ... if the Hennigan brothers can indeed get their "First Saturday in May" movie on TV next year the week before the Derby - on a station most people will stumble across - wow!

[KirisClown]

Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex were the best horses in the last 30 years... it's not even close.

Both were true champions, with hearts the size of the racetrack... They would have laughed at horses like Holy Bull, Cigar, Skip Away.. etc.

[The Bid]

Cigar couldnt have gotten Spectacular Bid out of a jog.

[cowgirlintexas]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Yep that one. Not really sure "worked" is the way I would describe his getting beat by Perfect Drift though. Unless I missed something and getting "worked" means getting beat a head. He was also second in the other "working" he got by Balto Star. Yeah he sucked. Real pigs win 4 grade 1's in a year. Keep up the good work!

Speaking of Balto Star... You know I have him on my "DRF horse watch list" and every so often (recently as last month) I get a workout for the old guy....
How old is that horse now?

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Literally accurate? Not sure.

Funny? Hilarious!

I haven't formulated a full opinion yet -- still thinking about the "brought new fans to the sport" angle -- but aside from a horse like Cigar, with an historic win streak, the titans from the late 70s dwarf most (if not all) of the "greats" thereafter.

Agreed that comparing to Cigar to 70's or other superstars may be apples and oranges, but how do you think horse racing gets new fans? How did you get hooked? Parents? growing up near a track? There are many ways to get fresh blood in what can be a difficult "inner circle" to navigate and I really think that superstars, or preceived superstars, are a big part of it.

[Sightseek]

Best since Bid = Ghostzapper

[Thunder Gulch]

I'll have to agree with many above...the case can certainly be made for the best in the last 25 years, but that late 70's run with Slew, Affirmed, and Bid would all rate higher on my list.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by KirisClown

Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex were the best horses in the last 30 years... it's not even close.

Rankings like this are by nature a little arbitrary so I usually don't like to say something like "You are wrong" in a discussion like this. But I will make an exception in this case. You are wrong.
I would like for you to explain to me how horses like Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Sunday Silence, etc. etc. etc. are "not even close" to being as good as the two you mentioned. I mean I know those three aren't in the same league as the likes of Birdstone and Giacomo, but they were pretty good.

[Buffymommy]

Jeez. Cigar was a very nice horse, but the best in the last 30 years? And better than Skippy? I don't think so.

How many times did Cigar and Skippy face off? Who won?

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I think it might have been a joke.

Oh it was certainly a joke. The question is, was it an intentional or unintentional joke?
That I can't answer.

[smuthg]

[quote=Cigar is certainly not in the top five horses to have raced in the last thirty years.[/QUOTE]

Not that I put a lot of stock in the rankings, but Bloodhorse did rank Cigar as the 18th best horse of the 20th Century...