Go Israel

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

It's simply not possible for the US to be a one stop solution to every despotic regime. If ideology alone is your guide you'll end up being pushed into entanglements everywhere in the world at once that would surely bankrupt us. This one solution fits all approach is reckless and could lead to horrible results. When the bullies and tyrants are actually clients of nuclear powers you do not rush in to topple these regimes unless you're ready for an all out world war. No, foreign policy has to be more pragmatic using policies crafted specifically for the situation especially when it comes under the spheres of influence of China and the former Soviet Union.

Supporting Israel like we have is cheap and effective compared to the alternatives. This was not an option in the fifties in eastern europe.

And supporting China's neighboring states like we do Israel, just because we do not like everything China does, is not an option at this point unless we just want to chuck our entire relations with China. No we're in an ecomomic war with China and we need for our own benefit to be engaged with them directly and not trying to set a neighboring state against them.

There are always bullies and thugs around and sometimes there are no better solutions than to be cozy with them for strategic reasons. Its not always clear what the better alternative is and sitting on the sideline without a chip in the game or any influence has it's drawbacks as well.

That's my $.02 anyway.

Jim ... you don't understand the way it works ...

... if they think that saying oil is expensive makes their point ... they say oil is expensive ... but ...

... if they think that saying oil is cheap makes their point ... they say oil is cheap ... sometimes completely contradicting themselves in the same post ... but ... it doesn't matter ... they have no shame ... they have no ideas ... they're just filled with rage and hatred ... and they really don't know why ... but to them it just feels good.

And after one is completely humiliated and slapped silly ... the other one says, "Yeah, man ... you're doing real good."

It's the terminally deluded in support of the completely vanquished ... and nothing more.

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Actually ...

... I took a short break because Mrs. Brooklynite ... who is a gourmet cook ... prepared a meal of spaghetti alle vongole verace ... spinaci alla siciliana ... and insalata mista ... which we washed down with a sleek soave bianco. Very refreshing.

OK now ... let's get on with it ...

You seem to think that your boy is doing well ... so .. let's look at his record so far on this thread ---

• Says people in small countries are sub-human ... gets slapped down.
• Thinks the Star of David is a religious symbol ... gets humiliated.
• Thinks a country's success depends on "oil" and "minerals" ... another slapdown.
• Doesn't know American values are stated in the Declaration and Constitution ... another humiliation.
• Confronts Dixie ... gets b-slapped.
• Doesn't know the Israeli war is part of the global war on terror ... blatant ignorance.
• Thinks all Israelis are orthodox Jews ... at least he was 10% right.
• Quotes Pat Buchanan ... at least it wasn't David Duke.
• Doesn't know who pays income taxes ... gets slapped down again.
• Thinks terrorists are "freedom fighters" ... still another slapdown.
• Forgot we liberated France, Belgium, and China ... hits the canvas more than Frazier vs. Foreman.
• Doesn't know Iraq has a democratically elected government ... more public ignorance.
• Says oil is "expensive" then says oil is "cheap" ... more self-humiliation.

Hmmm ... if the real Bold Ruler did as well as your boy ... he'd have been gelded and shipped to Nebraska.

You pull your playbook right out of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Avoid the question and keep posting nonsense. They have taught you well on how to twist peoples words and lie. Do you guys get a good deal on your drugs from Rush the criminal? LOL. Or is it now the Book of Virtues guy who gambles away all his money on slot machines (gambling for the brilliant those slots) that you take your lessons from. I will respond to each of your comments when you answer the questions I have asked a million times with no answer.

Why am I paying taxes to fund an Israeli army? Why can't they just raise their own taxes to pay for it? Is it my job to pay taxes so they can pay less and have more money in their pockets to go on vacation and buy nicer cars? Why don't the people in their military take a pay cut? Is it my job to fund an army for another country? ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.

For the 100th time, everyone pays federal income tax. The bottom 20% actually get a break when they file so they do not wind up paying no federal income tax but still supply 2% of all taxes the federal government collects. Are you really that dumb and because rush limbaugh say something you believe it? Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh are no different than Jesse Jackson. They are con artists

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Jim ... you don't understand the way it works ...

... if they think that saying oil is expensive makes their point ... they say oil is expensive ... but ...

... if they think that saying oil is cheap makes their point ... they say oil is cheap ... sometimes completely contradicting themselves in the same post ... but ... it doesn't matter ... they have no shame ... they have no ideas ... they're just filled with rage and hatred ... and they really don't know why ... but to them it just feels good.

And after one is completely humiliated and slapped silly ... the other one says, "Yeah, man ... you're doing real good."

It's the terminally deluded in support of the completely vanquished ... and nothing more.

Sorry but you had your a ss handed to you on this thread.

Facts

-You can't answer the main point of the entire conversation. Why am I paying for another countries army when they could just pay for it themselves? Instead you go on all about how people don't pay income tax and all this other garbage. You answer my question with a reasonable answer and you win. You don't and you run away with your tail between your legs.

Just curious, do you pay american or israeli taxes? Or are there even israeli taxes or do they just get a piece of my paycheck each week.

Originally Posted by boldruler

Why am I paying taxes to fund an Israeli army? Why can't they just raise their own taxes to pay for it? Is it my job to pay taxes so they can pay less and have more money in their pockets to go on vacation and buy nicer cars? Why don't the people in their military take a pay cut? Is it my job to fund an army for another country? ANSWER THE QUESTIONS.

I've answered the questions twice ... but either you can't read ... or you just don't like what you're reading.

But ... since you're such a nice guy ... and you've been so courteous and understanding ... I'll answer your questions for the third time.

Our elected officials are supposed to use the money which our democratically-elected government ... controlled by its citizens under the rule of law ... collects in taxes ... in order to protect our freedom and insure our safety.

Now ... there are some very vicious people out there who ... now I know you don't believe this ... but that's just another one of your mistakes ... who want to murder all of us ... yes, even you. They really really do ... they want to mutilate and murder all of us ... and they've gotten a lot of practice by mutilating and murdering their co-religionists and fellow countrymen ... so they've become very skilled at murder and mutilation.

And these people can't be negotiated with. They are single-minded and totallly monomaniacal. The only way we can preserve our freedom ... our safety ... and our very lives ... is to fight back.

Now ... we can't be everywhere all the time ... so sometimes it's worthwhile to get some help in fighting these vicious murderers. There's a country called Israel ... populated by people with balls the size of grapefruits ... who can help us in this fight.

So ... what we do is send them some money and some supplies ... and they use it to blast the daylights out of some of the people who want to murder us.

This is actually a pretty good deal for us ... because it only costs about $7 billion per year ... which is 1/4 of 1% of everything that our federal government spends ... not even counting what our state and local governments spend.

See? We pay out a few bucks ... and they kill our enemies ... and in doing so ... they make it possible for people like you and your buddies ... with pea brains full of hatred ... to sit in comfort and safety ... and type out nonsense on your keyboards.

Now do you get it?

Originally Posted by boldruler

I will respond to each of your comments when you answer the questions.

No you won't ... you'll just toss sand in the air ... then wait for your buddies to tell you how great you are.

That's your M.O. ... because you have nothing else.

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

I've answered the questions twice ... but either you can't read ... or you just don't like what you're reading.

But ... since you're such a nice guy ... and you've been so courteous and understanding ... I'll answer your questions for the third time.

Our elected officials are supposed to use the money which our democratically-elected government ... controlled by its citizens under the rule of law ... collects in taxes ... in order to protect our freedom and insure our safety.

Now ... there are some very vicious people out there who ... now I know you don't believe this ... but that's just another one of your mistakes ... who want to murder all of us ... yes, even you. They really really do ... they want to mutilate and murder all of us ... and they've gotten a lot of practice by mutilating and murdering their co-religionists and fellow countrymen ... so they've become very skilled at murder and mutilation.

And these people can't be negotiated with. They are single-minded and totallly monomaniacal. The only way we can preserve our freedom ... our safety ... and our very lives ... is to fight back.

Now ... we can't be everywhere all the time ... so sometimes it's worthwhile to get some help in fighting these vicious murderers. There's a country called Israel ... populated by people with balls the size of grapefruits ... who can help us in this fight.

So ... what we do is send them some money and some supplies ... and they use it to blast the daylights out of some of the people who want to murder us.

This is actually a pretty good deal for us ... because it only costs about $7 billion per year ... which is 1/4 of 1% of everything that our federal government spends ... not even counting what our state and local governments spend.

See? We pay out a few bucks ... and they kill our enemies ... and in doing so ... they make it possible for people like you and your buddies ... with pea brains full of hatred ... to sit in comfort and safety ... and type out nonsense on their keyboards.

Now do you get it?

Yeah I get it. You are an insane man. PAY FOR YOUR OWN MILITARY. It isn't my job. If you really believe we give billions of dollars to Israel in order to protect the United States, you aren't even worth talking to. You are just a clueless person who can't admit when he is wrong. First you said it was because we love freedom, but when you realized we prop up dictators and you realized Israel could pay for it themselves, you came up with this winner of an answer. Only an idiot would believe that one. Nice try though. Thank God for Israel, without them we wouldn't be able to defend ourselves from those terrorists they are killing. What a nutjob you are. Next you are going to tell me the Israeli military is just as good if not better than the US military. NUTJOB. Next you are going to tell me a whale spit out a guy named Jonah. LOL.

Originally Posted by boldruler

Yeah I get it. You are an insane man. PAY FOR YOUR OWN MILITARY. It isn't my job. If you really believe we give billions of dollars to Israel in order to protect the United States, you aren't even worth talking to. You are just a clueless person who can't admit when he is wrong. First you said it was because we love freedom, but when you realized we prop up dictators and you realized Israel could pay for it themselves, you came up with this winner of an answer. Only an idiot would believe that one. Nice try though. Thank God for Israel, without them we wouldn't be able to defend ourselves from those terrorists they are killing. What a nutjob you are. Next you are going to tell me the Israeli military is just as good if not better than the US military. NUTJOB. Next you are going to tell me a whale spit out a guy named Jonah. LOL.

As I said ... your M.O. is to toss sand in the air ... and then wait for your buddies to tell you how great you are ...

... and you've proven me right once again.

Hey ... I thought you were going to directly address every one of my comments. Let's try just one ...

You said I was "insane" because I provided the facts on who pays income taxes ... but ... as always ... you didn't provide any facts to dispute mine ... just the usual name calling and sand throwing.

So ... why don't you surprise all of us by giving us the "real" breakdown of how income tax payments are distributed across income groups. You claim my numbers are wrong ... then please provide the "correct" ones.

Originally Posted by boldruler

Yeah I get it. You are an insane man. PAY FOR YOUR OWN MILITARY. It isn't my job.

I don't like to see anyone get so upset ... so ...

... I'll tell you what I'll do to help you.

The aid we give to Israel amounts to 1/4 of 1% of the federal budget ... so ... please send me a copy of your 2005 federal tax filing ... and I'll personally send you a check for 1/4 of 1% of the taxes you paid.

Yup ... I'll take you up on your complaint ... I'll pay for my military ... and yours.

Deal?

Hmmm ... your buddies haven't posted anything in over three hours.

You must be feeling very lonely and a-scared right now.

Wait ... who's that standing behind you? It looks like ... it is ... it's Dixie ... watch out !!!!



Ha-ha-ha ... there's no one there ... I was just trying to scare you.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Solution for Despotic rulers? We've created more despotic rulers than any country in the last two hundred years.

First of all I don’t believe for a minute this statement. Yes we’ve supported and propped up and used despots, but what was the choice? There’s not a lot to choose from in some cases. Should we have postponed any and all strategic relations until democracy was in full bloom? Even without our involvement I don’t believe that you can say for sure that the same regimes wouldn’t have thrived anyway, or that even more tyrannical ones would have existed in their place.

Originally Posted by dalakhani

How can our support of Israel be viewed in any way as "cheap". I dont get that. Help me here. Arent we over 100 billion into them yet?

Im still waiting for an answer- why do we send so much money to Israel? And if we have to send money out, if it is our duty, why so much more to them? How do they help us?????

It is more than we give to any other nation, but over all these years it’s a drop in the bucket at around 100B. We’ve pumped around 90B into Iraq for rebuilding since the takeover of Baghdad.

The region is of vital strategic importance. Without Israel acting as our surrogate what strategy would have held in check the Soviet Unions ambitions and at the same time prevented the further expansion of fanatical religious regimes, given us the amount of intelligence that we currently share with Israel, and at the same time costing us less in terms of blood and treasure?

We give so much more to them simply because they are a stable, strong, democratic ally acting as our surrogate in a region of huge strategic importance, as I mentioned above.
There is not another country that can offer this to us and that is why more goes to them. Until recently we have given far less to others in the area, typically Egypt. But now with Afghanistan and Iraq on the receiving end of huge amounts of US aid our overall expenditures in the region are balancing out.

Holy shamoley!

I realy must have scared him ... he's been gone for over two hours ... after posting every thirty seconds.

Hey, man ... I'm sorry ... I didn't mean to scare you ... Dixie really wasn't standing behind you.

Aw, c'mon out and play again. You can even bring your buddies with you.

No? Shoot ... guess I'll just have to turn in.

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

First of all I don’t believe for a minute this statement. Yes we’ve supported and propped up and used despots, but what was the choice? There’s not a lot to choose from in some cases. Should we have postponed any and all strategic relations until democracy was in full bloom? Even without our involvement I don’t believe that you can say for sure that the same regimes wouldn’t have thrived anyway, or that even more tyrannical ones would have existed in their place.

Jim ... here's how to answer that ridiculous statement.

"You're confusing objectives and strategies. Our objective in places like Taiwan, South Korea, The Phillipines, Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Chile was to help establish freedom and democracy.

But there were times when our strategy was to support authoritarian dictators in order to thwart the greater evil of communism. And that strategy worked perfectly.

Communism was defeated ... and Taiwan, South Korea, The Phillipines, Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Chile all became free democracies.

We employed different strategies in Eastern Europe, South Africa, and many other places ... and those strategies achieved our objectives as well ... all those countries became free democracies.

So you see ... don't be confused by strategies ... keep your eye on the objective ... the way savvy Americans always have ... and you'll have a much clearer understanding of why we did what we did ... and how successful we've been."

That's how you handle chumps like that, Jim. Good night !!

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

First of all I don’t believe for a minute this statement. Yes we’ve supported and propped up and used despots, but what was the choice? There’s not a lot to choose from in some cases. Should we have postponed any and all strategic relations until democracy was in full bloom? Even without our involvement I don’t believe that you can say for sure that the same regimes wouldn’t have thrived anyway, or that even more tyrannical ones would have existed in their place.


It is more than we give to any other nation, but over all these years it’s a drop in the bucket at around 100B. We’ve pumped around 90B into Iraq for rebuilding since the takeover of Baghdad.

The region is of vital strategic importance. Without Israel acting as our surrogate what strategy would have held in check the Soviet Unions ambitions and at the same time prevented the further expansion of fanatical religious regimes, given us the amount of intelligence that we currently share with Israel, and at the same time costing us less in terms of blood and treasure?

We give so much more to them simply because they are a stable, strong, democratic ally acting as our surrogate in a region of huge strategic importance, as I mentioned above.
There is not another country that can offer this to us and that is why more goes to them. Until recently we have given far less to others in the area, typically Egypt. But now with Afghanistan and Iraq on the receiving end of huge amounts of US aid our overall expenditures in the region are balancing out.

Even being on the other side of these issues i commend you for your knowledgeable thought out responses. Cheers!

Now back to war.

We had plenty of choices but to use the despots that we have used. Thats what i mean. We say that we are doing what we do in the name of "the american way" and then we support leaders or governments that are so far away from what we claim we are fighting for. One minute, Rumsfeld is shaking hands with a guy and we are pumping them with money and arms. The next minute, the same guy has phantom wmd's and we need to rid the earth of him. It seems that we support despots that can be US controlled and the ones that cant are branded tyrants. Such is the American way or at least thats what our leaders think.

Israel is stable? Are you kidding me? They are the single reason why we have such unstable standing in the region. If not for our undying support of a country that is virtually worthless to us, we wouldnt have all of the problems with the arab governments that we do.

Egyptian and Russian ties were cut in the early 70's. We have a base and strong support in Saudi Arabia. So why is Israel so vital to us? I still dont know.

As for using how much money has been pumped into Iraq, again, that is yet another question for this administration. Why are we there? Wmds? Nope, arent there. Saddam the oppressor? We helped make Saddam! Terrorist ties? 911 commission proved that wasnt the case. So why? And if we are going to make that a base in the middle east, again, why give so much to Israel?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Bold Brooklynite

Jim ... here's how to answer that ridiculous statement.

"You're confusing objectives and strategies. Our objective in places like Taiwan, South Korea, The Phillipines, Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Chile was to help establish freedom and democracy.

But there were times when our strategy was to support authoritarian dictators in order to thwart the greater evil of communism. And that strategy worked perfectly.

Communism was defeated ... and Taiwan, South Korea, The Phillipines, Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Chile all became free democracies.

We employed different strategies in Eastern Europe, South Africa, and many other places ... and those strategies achieved our objectives as well ... all those countries became free democracies.

So you see ... don't be confused by strategies ... keep your eye on the objective ... the way savvy Americans always have ... and you'll have a much clearer understanding of why we did what we did ... and how successful we've been."

That's how you handle chumps like that, Jim. Good night !!

Yes you said it, that's what I meant to say! I won't argue with your ability to say it better than I can.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

Yes you said it, that's what I meant to say! I won't argue with your ability to say it better than I can.

Okay, so what country has put up more tyrannical despot rulers than the US over the last 200 years? Shall i go over the names?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Okay, so what country has put up more tyrannical despot rulers than the US over the last 200 years? Shall i go over the names?

You can go ahead and put up the names, but at the same time I want to know from you what should the strategy have been at the time? Who should we have supported, anyone? No one? I know that you can come up with a list of despised dictators but that's not the hard part.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

You can go ahead and put up the names, but at the same time I want to know from you what should the strategy have been at the time? Who should we have supported, anyone? No one? I know that you can come up with a list of despised dictators but that's not the hard part.

Okay Jim...I'll bite.

Just for starters:

How about the somozas in Nicaragua? We put this family in in the 1920's. That fool brooklynite keeps speaking of "objectives" but why did we keep a family of successive despots in until 1979? There was no threat of communism for much of that tenure. So why? Because it was easy to control with money. We didnt give a damn about democracy or "the american way". it was about sheer control and about serious violations of human rights and misuse of US aid. What could we have done differently? Perhaps we could have not fed them the money for so many years. When the money stopped, so did their reign.

How about Mobutu in the congo? Didnt he make off with like 5 billion dollars in money bilked by US taxpayers all because he agreed to close the Soviet embassy. Surely we could have backed a different man...a man that would share some of the 5 billion dollars to his starving people.

How about Idi Amin? Us aid in dollars and military equipment all while he killed THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND OF HIS OWN PEOPLE. Yep, the American way right there. We really liberated those poor people and showed them a NEW way of life.

How about Pol Pot? I love when idiots like this brooklynite fool talk completely out of their ass and have not a clue about what they are farting out. Pol Pot came to power as a result of the frenzy from illegal US bombing during the Viet Nam war. I said ILLEGAL US bombing. Then, because Pol Pot hated the soviets and they were natural enemies to Viet Nam, the US decided to support the government and did so for five years while he killed over a MILLION of his own people. What could they have done differently? HMMMMM....maybe tried to fight this guy who was committing genocide? This brooklynite fool actually tries to claim that the US helped rid the country of tyranny. What a moron! The US SUPPORTED IT! The Vietnamese liberated Cambodia from Pol Pot.

Thats just starters...you want more?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

You can go ahead and put up the names, but at the same time I want to know from you what should the strategy have been at the time? Who should we have supported, anyone? No one? I know that you can come up with a list of despised dictators but that's not the hard part.

We have all of these Monday morning quarterbacks here that criticize every move tha the US has made over the years. I agree that the US has made some mistakes over the years. That's not the point. When you are the richest country in the world and you have a stake in the outcome of many global conflicts, sometimes you are forced to take sides in these conflicts. The US has to ask itself what the better outcome would be in each of these conflicts. The Iran/Iraq war back in the 1980s is a perfect example. People on this board like Dalakhani say that we shouldn't have supported Saddam back in the 1980s, but what was the alternative? Iraq was at war with Iran at the time. Our leaders thought about the situation carefully and decided that it was important to make sure that Iran did not prevail in that war, so we supported Iraq. The fact that Saddam became an enemy years later does not mean that it was a mistake to support Iraq back in the 1980s. Saddam was the lesser of two evils at the time. The radical regime that was in power in Iran in the 1980s appeared to be a dangerous threat. The smart thing for us to do at the time was to support Saddam.
I don't know why people like to bring up the fact that we supported Saddam back in the 1980s. How is that relevant to today? It made sense to support Saddam in the 1980s.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

We have all of these Monday morning quarterbacks here that criticize every move tha the US has made over the years. I agree that the US has made some mistakes over the years. That's not the point. When you are the richest country in the world and you have a stake in the outcome of many global conflicts, sometimes you are forced to take sides in these conflicts. The US has to ask itself what the better outcome would be in each of these conflicts. The Iran/Iraq war back in the 1980s is a perfect example. People on this board like Dalakhani say that we shouldn't have supported Saddam back in the 1980s, but what was the alternative? Iraq was at war with Iran at the time. Our leaders thought about the situation carefully and decided that it was important to make sure that Iran did not prevail in that war, so we supported Iraq. The fact that Saddam became an enemy years later does not mean that it was a mistake to support Iraq back in the 1980s. Saddam was the lesser of two evils at the time. The radical regime that was in power in Iran in the 1980s appeared to be a dangerous threat. The smart thing for us to do at the time was to support Saddam.
I don't know why people like to bring up the fact that we supported Saddam back in the 1980s. How is that relevant to today? It made sense to support Saddam in the 1980s.

Rupert-

Do me a favor and PLEASE keep posting on this topic. Your replies make for rather easy fodder. Thank you!

First of all, the US supplied BOTH sides of that little war. Surely youve heard of the whole Iran- Contra deal which nearly got a president impeached and caused one Oliver North to gain a sudden case of amnesia. The US supplied both sides so that they could kill each other off. Yes- The altruistic motives of the US government at its very best.

Basically you are saying that the US empowered and supplied a genocidal, tyrannical despot as the "lesser of two evils" so that we could maintain political control? What about the "freedom" of the Iraqi people that our troops are dying for every day? Was that "freedom" not important then?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Rupert-

Do me a favor and PLEASE keep posting on this topic. Your replies make for rather easy fodder. Thank you!

First of all, the US supplied BOTH sides of that little war. Surely youve heard of the whole Iran- Contra deal which nearly got a president impeached and caused one Oliver North to gain a sudden case of amnesia. The US supplied both sides so that they could kill each other off. Yes- The altruistic motives of the US government at its very best.

Basically you are saying that the US empowered and supplied a genocidal, tyrannical despot as the "lesser of two evils" so that we could maintain political control? What about the "freedom" of the Iraqi people that our troops are dying for every day? Was that "freedom" not important then?

As Arl Jim said, "It's not possible for the US to be a one stop solution for every despotic regime. Foreign policy has to be pragmatic using policies crafted specifically for each individual situation."
I agree with Arl Jim 100% on this. I think this ansewrs your question as to why the US supports dictators when it suits them. We play the cards that are dealt us. I think it's that simple.
You made a sarcastic comment about the US government being altruistic. We may not always be altruistic but we are a helluva lot more altruistic than any other country in the world. We provide more aid all around the world than any other country.
You seem to have a lot of questions and criticisms about US foreign policy, but you don't seem to have any answers.
Anyway, US foreign policy with regard to Israel is not going to change. Israel has great bi-partisan support in Congress as it should. I know you'd like to see us support terrorists or "freedom fighters" as you would call them, but that won't be happening any time soon.