Religious Fanatics and War

For those of you who think religous zealotry plays a large role in human created catastrophe's I give you a video made by a fellow Physics teacher. The views expressed or implied in this U-tube video are not necessarily in accordance with my views. Music by Frank Zappa. click on dumb all over

http://www.geocities.com/gonzmosis/dumb.html


interesting perspective though.

[Downthestretch55]

Pat,
Here's one you might be interested in. Hagee lives in Texas.

This is totally "nuts"!!!

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0801-28.htm

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Pat,
Here's one you might be interested in. Hagee lives in Texas.

This is totally "nuts"!!!

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0801-28.htm

OH DTS you hit a spot.
This is... how shall I put it.

He has a huge Israeli flag in his Gym. He gives money to the JCC here and they wont take it. He is very wealthy. His temple of Worship is one of the largest gaudiest things I have ever seen. I will give you a personal message about what type of guy I think he is.

Holy Cow did you hit a spot. Not only does he live in Texas. He lives in THE RICHEST area of San Antonio. David Robinson, a famous country singer named George Strait, etc.. also live in the same subdivision. The pulpit has been very kind to him. God has shed his riches with Hagee.

[Downthestretch55]

Here is another interesting article. I'm also on the side of children.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0801-25.htm

[irishtrekker]

There's a great NYT article you might appreciate:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/us...406&ei=5087%0A

This had me out of my chair cheering, because this personally is the kind of religion that I wish we saw more often. Now, if we could just do something about the way we're interpreting our "dominion" over the rest of the planet...Really, truly, *regardless* of your political or religious perspective, this series of articles should be on the must-read list (and I wish that someone would put it under the nose of all our politicians, since they clearly don't care).

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/oc...842752.special

Things like this make me grieve for us all. We have so much potential to do good, but we squander it and make other creatures pay.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by irishtrekker

There's a great NYT article you might appreciate:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/us...406&ei=5087%0A

This had me out of my chair cheering, because this personally is the kind of religion that I wish we saw more often. Now, if we could just do something about the way we're interpreting our "dominion" over the rest of the planet...Really, truly, *regardless* of your political or religious perspective, this series of articles should be on the must-read list (and I wish that someone would put it under the nose of all our politicians, since they clearly don't care).

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/oc...842752.special

Things like this make me grieve for us all. We have so much potential to do good, but we squander it and make other creatures pay.

Irish,
Good articles.
Mr. Boyd is indeed courageous.

I especially agree with your words in your last two sentences.

DTS

[irishtrekker]

Thanks DTS. It's hard to explain how I feel, but I'm guessing maybe you understand how much it hurts sometimes, and how disheartening it can be to realize that some of the damage has spiralled beyond anyone's ability to curtail it. Dang, I'm not in a great mood today, am I?

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by irishtrekker

Thanks DTS. It's hard to explain how I feel, but I'm guessing maybe you understand how much it hurts sometimes, and how disheartening it can be to realize that some of the damage has spiralled beyond anyone's ability to curtail it. Dang, I'm not in a great mood today, am I?

Irish,
I don't think many are in a good mood. Might be the heat.
Lucky for most of us that we have ac and water...and yet over 160 have died due to the heat wave.
I shudder to think what it must be like in Gaza without electricity, water, sewage.
It's not within my ability to curtail it.. Danged frustrating!
DTS

[irishtrekker]

Yep. For some reason, that sudden realization of my own limitations to affect the world only hit me the last year or two. It's definitely frustrating, but what can you do except keep trying?

Well it is going to be 113-116 in Baghdad all week where Americans are, so it is nothing here in the US or in Israel/Lebanon where it is a cool 85. Try carrying around all that equipment surrounded by people that want to kill you in that heat, when you aren't even fighting for something to benefit you personally. That is difficult. The heat here and in Israel/Lebanon is nothing.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Well it is going to be 113-116 in Baghdad all week where Americans are, so it is nothing here in the US or in Israel/Lebanon where it is a cool 85. Try carrying around all that equipment surrounded by people that want to kill you in that heat, when you aren't even fighting for something to benefit you personally. That is difficult. The heat here and in Israel/Lebanon is nothing.

Bold Ruler,
You're kidding, right?
If you don't know the difference between those that signed up for a war of choice and those that have one imposed on them....
I really hope you're making a "joke". If you're not, you might consider enlisting too so you can "kick some rag-head" butts. Interesting to me what some people will put themselves through because of their "beliefs".
Go Dubbya! This insanity will end sooner or later.

I hope you said this as a "joke". Not funny at all. Insane is the right word.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Bold Ruler,
You're kidding, right?
If you don't know the difference between those that signed up for a war of choice and those that have one imposed on them....
I really hope you're making a "joke". If you're not, you might consider enlisting too so you can "kick some rag-head" butts. Interesting to me what some people will put themselves through because of their "beliefs".
Go Dubbya! This insanity will end sooner or later.

I hope you said this as a "joke". Not funny at all. Insane is the right word.

The fact is that most guys/gals in Iraq never wanted to fight this ridiculous war. They are great people that did what their government asked them to do. You and I are sitting around in airconditioning talking about horses and they are helping civilians in Iraq put their life back together or in many cases get a life for the first time.

You sound like the typical liberal that is blaming soldiers and marines saying they all want to "kick some rag-head" butts, but 90% of them are good people who are trying to help the average Iraqi try to get a normal life.

They signed up to protect america, their commander and chief just has a delusional view of what that means.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

The fact is that most guys/gals in Iraq never wanted to fight this ridiculous war. They are great people that did what their government asked them to do. You and I are sitting around in airconditioning talking about horses and they are helping civilians in Iraq put their life back together or in many cases get a life for the first time.

You sound like the typical liberal that is blaming soldiers and marines saying they all want to "kick some rag-head" butts, but 90% of them are good people who are trying to help the average Iraqi try to get a normal life.

They signed up to protect america, their commander and chief just has a delusional view of what that means.

Bold Ruler,
First of all, don't label me. I am not a typical liberal nor a typical conservative.
You've heard it as many times as I have that their efforts are "protecting America".
I really don't see it.
These are kids that couldn't find real jobs in the "booming economy". They weighed their options and signed up to participate in the "fool's errand".
They bought into the propaganda, as have so many others that will probably respond to this post.
The best thing that could happen to "help the average Iraqui try to have a normal life" would be to get all of our brave military out of there as soon as possible. We can not intervene in a civil war. We did not find weapons of mass destruction. There was no yellow cake.
Sure, they're just taking orders. So were those at Nuremburg.
Our real "war criminal" needs to be put on trial so that the confidence of the world will again be restored to trust in the benificence of the USA...
until then...the "fool's errand" will continue.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Bold Ruler,
First of all, don't label me. I am not a typical liberal nor a typical conservative.
You've heard it as many times as I have that their efforts are "protecting America".
I really don't see it.
These are kids that couldn't find real jobs in the "booming economy". They weighed their options and signed up to participate in the "fool's errand".
They bought into the propaganda, as have so many others that will probably respond to this post.
The best thing that could happen to "help the average Iraqui try to have a normal life" would be to get all of our brave military out of there as soon as possible. We can not intervene in a civil war. We did not find weapons of mass destruction. There was no yellow cake.
Sure, they're just taking orders. So were those at Nuremburg.
Our real "war criminal" needs to be put on trial so that the confidence of the world will again be restored to trust in the benificence of the USA...
until then...the "fool's errand" will continue.

Comparing our troops to those at Nuremburg is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself. How do you know these are kids that couldn't find real jobs in the booming economy? That is almost as dumb as your Nuremburg statement. The military is an excellent way for people to gain skills and to get money for college. This isn't a low-tech military, many of these guys/girls are graduates of some of the finest universities in the country.

I personally think we should just get the hell out too, but the members of the military answer to the President. That is the way it works. You have no idea if they bought into any propoganda. If they did or didn't they still have to take orders. You can't have a military where people just do whatever they want to do. Most think the war is a joke, but you aren't going to hear that, you are only going to get the story the President and Fox News want to get out there. Do you really think they rather be in 110 degree heat than at home with their families?

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

Comparing our troops to those at Nuremburg is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself. How do you know these are kids that couldn't find real jobs in the booming economy? That is almost as dumb as your Nuremburg statement. The military is an excellent way for people to gain skills and to get money for college. This isn't a low-tech military, many of these guys/girls are graduates of some of the finest universities in the country.

I personally think we should just get the hell out too, but the members of the military answer to the President. That is the way it works. You have no idea if they bought into any propoganda. If they did or didn't they still have to take orders. You can't have a military where people just do whatever they want to do. Most think the war is a joke, but you aren't going to hear that, you are only going to get the story the President and Fox News want to get out there. Do you really think they rather be in 110 degree heat than at home with their families?

Bold Ruler,
First of all, if you "graduate from one of the best universities", does it mean that you have a piece of parchment or a brain that is capable of thinking on its own?
Secondly, noone put a gun to their head to sign on the dotted line. They put themselves into that situation willingly. They either bought the propaganda or the "promises" of the recruiter. Either way, they're sweating their buns off in the 110 degree heat for making that decision. I didn't make it for them.
Third, I should be "ashamed"? Why? Because I speak the truth?
If you say I'm "dumb" for calling out the carnage that has been caused...
I don't think there's much more to talk about.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the United States put German leaders on
trial for going along with the decisions of their nazi leaders? Is Saddam Hussain on trial for exactly the same now?
I can't wait until Geo W shows up in the Hague to answer for his actions.

Shame on me??? I don't think so. I didn't make this tragedy...and it's not for me to answer for it.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

Bold Ruler,
First of all, if you "graduate from one of the best universities", does it mean that you have a piece of parchment or a brain that is capable of thinking on its own?
Secondly, noone put a gun to their head to sign on the dotted line. They put themselves into that situation willingly. They either bought the propaganda or the "promises" of the recruiter. Either way, they're sweating their buns off in the 110 degree heat for making that decision. I didn't make it for them.
Third, I should be "ashamed"? Why? Because I speak the truth?
If you say I'm "dumb" for calling out the carnage that has been caused...
I don't think there's much more to talk about.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the United States put German leaders on
trial for going along with the decisions of their nazi leaders? Is Saddam Hussain on trial for exactly the same now?
I can't wait until Geo W shows up in the Hague to answer for his actions.

Shame on me??? I don't think so. I didn't make this tragedy...and it's not for me to answer for it.

You are ridiculous. By your reasoning anyone in the military is an idiot. Who do you think protects your country? George W is an idiot, but he isn't Saddam or Hitler. You are out of control with this liberal nonsense. You live in a little fantasy world where everyone is nice and there is no need for a military. War is never right, you need to talk things over, etc. War is terrible and never good, but it is sometimes necessary. Thank God George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Wilson, FDR and Truman realized that. Next you are going to tell me Truman was a murderer for dropping the bomb.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

You are ridiculous. By your reasoning anyone in the military is an idiot. Who do you think protects your country? George W is an idiot, but he isn't Saddam or Hitler. You are out of control with this liberal nonsense. You live in a little fantasy world where everyone is nice and there is no need for a military. War is never right, you need to talk things over, etc. War is terrible and never good, but it is sometimes necessary. Thank God George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Wilson, FDR and Truman. Next you are going to tell me Truman was a murderer for dropping the bomb.

You are ridiculous.
You live in a fantasy world where you put out "feel sorry for me bs, I'm sweating my a s s off in Iranian heat.
Explain please, how are the billions spent and the lives expended making this country SAFE??
Stay on topic. I don't want to discuss Washington, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, Truman. Only an idiot would not be able to see through your vain attempt to divert the discussion from current events. Nice try.
I'm out of control? I speak nonsense?
You are as insane as the position you are attempting to defend.

Look in the mirror.

Originally Posted by Downthestretch55

You are ridiculous.
You live in a fantasy world where you put out "feel sorry for me bs, I'm sweating my a s s off in Iranian heat.
Explain please, how are the billions spent and the lives expended making this country SAFE??
Stay on topic. I don't want to discuss Washington, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, Truman. Only an idiot would not be able to see through your vain attempt to divert the discussion from current events. Nice try.
I'm out of control? I speak nonsense?
You are as insane as the position you are attempting to defend.

Look in the mirror.

By your reasoning we would not even have a military if not for "idiots" that join. Iraq is not making this country safe. It is a ridiculous war. I have said that from the beginning. I despise Pat Buchanan, but I am an isolationist just like him. I don't see a need to fight unnecessary wars like Iraq, and I don't see a need to give money to other countries unless it is for humanitarian needs. The fact is the men and women in our military take orders and they do their job. Some right now are trying to help correct the mess Bush made. Personally I think we should cut and run, save the tax dollar and our soldiers lives, and let them have their civil war. It still doesn't mean they don't deserve praise for trying to do good while dealing with 115 degree heat.

[Downthestretch55]

Originally Posted by boldruler

By your reasoning we would not even have a military if not for "idiots" that join. Iraq is not making this country safe. It is a ridiculous war. I have said that from the beginning. I despise Pat Buchanan, but I am an isolationist just like him. I don't see a need to fight unnecessary wars like Iraq, and I don't see a need to give money to other countries unless it is for humanitarian needs. The fact is the men and women in our military take orders and they do their job. Some right now are trying to help correct the mess Bush made. Personally I think we should cut and run, save the tax dollar and our soldiers lives, and let them have their civil war. It still doesn't mean they don't deserve praise for trying to do good while dealing with 115 degree heat.

Not much more that I can say.

1) I agree that the Iraq war is a ridiculous war. It is NOT making the United States safer.
2) Those that follow orders do so by choice. Precedent has been established.
3) Supplying humanitarian needs would go a long way to helping to restore credibility in the world. The United States can never return to an "isolationist" agenda. Our world presence has been established and reinforced...see Israel.
4) There is no such thing as "cut and run". Rove came up with those words and the "spin" has been played again and again. Like Himler, if the lie is repeated often enough, people will believe.... alas, most but not all.
5) War criminals are exactly that. Idiots are also if they follow the orders of war criminals.
6) The world is watching. The consequences will continue to be huge...
far more than "Homeland Security" can envision or anticipate. One way to prevent the likely response is to demonstrate that Americans don't wish to perpetuate the insanity.

[irishtrekker]

DTS, I have to respectfully disagree with some of what you've said, only because I was almost one of those Marines myself! The kids from my class ('99) signed up when our state was going through some economic problems. I'm from a farm town, and not a lot of people go to college after high school. Most come from military families, and that's where the kids go, too.

None of us had any idea in 1999 that we were going to go to war, but the sign-up contract is for six years with most branches of the service. I had good friends who never thought they'd actually fight wind up serving in both Afghanistan and Iraq. They are really psychologically messed up now, and I'm still counting my blessings for deciding to listen to my parents for once.

You're right that deep down, they should maybe have thought there might actually be a war some day...but we grew up at the end of the Cold War. To us, there were no bad guys left, naive as that may sound. Plus, when you're 18, a lot of things make sense that seem really stupid when a few more years have passed. I despise this war and have from the very beginning, but I have sympathy for soldiers who are stuck, and particularly for the kids who have families to support and can't just disobey orders and drop out. I also have tons of respect for people who don't enlist. I respect the soldiers who believe in what they're doing, because whether or not I agree with them, it's their lives on the line. Everyone makes their choices. But there are so many people I know who would give it all to take back that moment when they signed on the contract.

Just my two cents. Hope you don't mind.