Dubai v. Breeders Cup question...

smuthg · #1 03-30-2008, 01:35 AM

I've attended the last 3 Breeders' Cups in person and I think at least 3 horses to my count have broken down on the track (GW, Fleet Indian and the Phipps filly in the Distaff) [and I think they actually lost one at Belmont in 05], yet I've watched the last couple Dubai World Cup day series of races and don't think I've even noticed a horse being pulled up... Is this a product of the lack of drugs, better surface, luck or some product of all three...

#2 03-30-2008, 01:35 AM

Allah.

smuthg · #3 03-30-2008, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Allah.

You are CORRECT SIR... Yes...

deltagulf · #4 03-30-2008, 07:46 AM

depend to much on drugs over here

CSC · #5 03-30-2008, 08:30 AM

If you look at the card in Dubai, you actually have much better world representation than the Breeders Cup. The BC has slowly lost it's lustre with me the past few years, infact I wouldn't even miss it much if it were to become antiquated in the near future. Especially with the expansion to have it run over 2 days, injuries, retirements, and less world representation it has become a watered down product to me.

miraja2 · #6 03-30-2008, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smuthg

I've attended the last 3 Breeders' Cups in person and I think at least 3 horses to my count have broken down on the track (GW, Fleet Indian and the Phipps filly in the Distaff) [and I think they actually lost one at Belmont in 05], yet I've watched the last couple Dubai World Cup day series of races and don't think I've even noticed a horse being pulled up... Is this a product of the lack of drugs, better surface, luck or some product of all three...

It might also be possible that this isn't a large enough sample to come to any sort of meaningful conclusion whatsoever.

CSC · #7 03-30-2008, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smuthg

I've attended the last 3 Breeders' Cups in person and I think at least 3 horses to my count have broken down on the track (GW, Fleet Indian and the Phipps filly in the Distaff) [and I think they actually lost one at Belmont in 05], yet I've watched the last couple Dubai World Cup day series of races and don't think I've even noticed a horse being pulled up... Is this a product of the lack of drugs, better surface, luck or some product of all three...

To expand on the injury thoery, I have been watching Australian racing for the better part of 4-5 years now and I have rarely seen a horse break down during a race. Infact I can only think of one horse breaking down during the stretch unseating the jockey. Not sure why that is, perhaps turf is more forgiving I don't know? But it always struck me how safe racing was over there.

smuthg · #8 03-30-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

It might also be possible that this isn't a large enough sample to come to any sort of meaningful conclusion whatsoever.

Agreed...

pmayjr · #9 03-30-2008, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Allah.

quote of the day!

pmayjr · #10 03-30-2008, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

To expand on the injury thoery, I have been watching Australian racing for the better part of 4-5 years now and I have rarely seen a horse break down during a race. Infact I can only think of one horse breaking down during the stretch unseating the jockey. Not sure why that is, perhaps turf is more forgiving I don't know? But it always struck me how safe racing was over there.

Well they don't allow drugs in Australia either. In fact (I think Brock or MyMissStormCat could verify this) I think they test the winning horses for drugs literally right after the race ends. That's why it takes awhile for the offical payouts to come in when you play Australia. Also, horses there seem to run a lot more frequently. They're a lot more fit it seems. If the powers-that-be here would ban drugs... sorry, pipe-dreams...

CSC · #11 03-30-2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmayjr

Well they don't allow drugs in Australia either. In fact (I think Brock or MyMissStormCat could verify this) I think they test the winning horses for drugs literally right after the race ends. That's why it takes awhile for the offical payouts to come in when you play Australia. Also, horses there seem to run a lot more frequently. They're a lot more fit it seems. If the powers-that-be here would ban drugs... sorry, pipe-dreams...

True, many horses have run 1 week prior to the 2 mile Melbourne Cup prepping in 1 1/2 races stake races. If they did that here, the Trainer would be submitted to supply a specimen for possible drug use...It's amazing how sturdy their horses are over there. First time I noticed that I was blown away and then we have horses running 6 times over a yr and complaining of hard campaigns. Doesn't make sense does it?

pmayjr · #12 03-30-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

True, many horses have run 1 week prior to the 2 mile Melbourne Cup prepping in 1 1/2 races stake races. If they did that here, the Trainer would be submitted to supply a specimen for possible drug use...It's amazing how sturdy their horses are over there. First time I noticed that I was blown away and then we have horses running 6 times over a yr and complaining of hard campaigns. Doesn't make sense does it?

horses here are like starting pitchers in MLB these days... are people's physiology that much different that they can't throw on 3 days rest? Teams in the early-mid 90s were still usin 4-man rotations right? Instead of worrying about the strain, pitchers can't build up proper endurance and so they still get hurt all the time. Horses would build up stamina and endurance and better strength if they ran more too. But the common denominator between horses and starting pitchers, owners have too much $$$ at stake to "risk it" lol.

But, I'll pose this question. Darley and Godolphin have big operations in Australia too right? Do their horses run more frequently there than they do here?

Danzig · #13 03-30-2008, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

To expand on the injury thoery, I have been watching Australian racing for the better part of 4-5 years now and I have rarely seen a horse break down during a race. Infact I can only think of one horse breaking down during the stretch unseating the jockey. Not sure why that is, perhaps turf is more forgiving I don't know? But it always struck me how safe racing was over there.

a study a few years ago did say that turf showed to be kinder, less breakdowns/injuries then dirt.

as for aussie horses, no bleeders allowed. no lasix, a horse who bleeds twice is thru. i think those rules follow thru to the breeding shed as well.

but keep in mind that many north american and european horses shuttle to australia, so it's the same bloodlines we have here. makes you wonder, doesn't it?

johnny pinwheel · #14 03-30-2008, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

If you look at the card in Dubai, you actually have much better world representation than the Breeders Cup. The BC has slowly lost it's lustre with me the past few years, infact I wouldn't even miss it much if it were to become antiquated in the near future. Especially with the expansion to have it run over 2 days, injuries, retirements, and less world representation it has become a watered down product to me.

they've cornered the market. and next year they are raising the purses. and watch for the next 2 BC's being in california. thats a brain storm! the breeders cup is a national championship, what these guys in dubai have created is a world championship.as for racing , i've seen horses break down everywhere except dubai. i'm sure some have its part of racing. every athlete takes a chance, that goes for humans as well.

Linny · #15 03-30-2008, 12:14 PM

The Aussie horses work hard but they are rested well when they need it. They are trained at centers and "yards" and many gethours of turn out time daily, while in training. Many G1 horses prep for important races 5 to 7 days out. The big final prep for the 2 mile Melbourne Cup is indeed a 12f event less than a week before.

In Germany, you cannot stand a stallion who EVER raced on Lasix. That is why Schirocco who won the BC a few years back didn't use it.

I tend to think that US horses are coddled too much also. Back in the day horses trained harder and stayed sounder.

AeWingnut · #16 03-30-2008, 12:19 PM

they are way behind the curve they haven't segregated their races
and made it a two day event

btw...

I hate the way they did the post parades

they are about to go off and they finally show you the horses. What if you need to narrow the field and you look up that 1 of the horses you are on the fence with - looks a total wreck.

Danzig · #17 03-30-2008, 12:24 PM

i think instead of the bc watering down the card by adding so many races and a second day, they should have bumped up the purses on the classic and the turf race. and then they should pay for the top horses' trips out to it. actually, there are several purses that should be adjusted, removing some money from a few, and add to the more important ones.

jwkniska · #18 03-30-2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

True, many horses have run 1 week prior to the 2 mile Melbourne Cup prepping in 1 1/2 races stake races. If they did that here, the Trainer would be submitted to supply a specimen for possible drug use...It's amazing how sturdy their horses are over there. First time I noticed that I was blown away and then we have horses running 6 times over a yr and complaining of hard campaigns. Doesn't make sense does it?

A couple of years ago, the winner of the Beverly D at AP ran in a 9-10F race the week before at 'toga.... tossed her due to that and the horse burned me bigtime. Angara cost me the pick 4 that day.

Cannon Shell · #19 03-30-2008, 05:40 PM

The thought that bloodlines in the US are the same is not exactly correct. While in recent years there have been more American bloodlines imported into Australia the vast majority of the mares contain very little relation to American mares. Northern Dancer blood is incredibly infused there but mainly through European connections. One very prominent name that is found everywhere in American pedigrees and hardly anywhere in Austalian ones is Storm Cat. The full effects of the shuttle stallions will take many years to judge.

The fact that all racing is done on turf and much of it at sprint distances is something that would make it much easier to run back on short rest as opposed to dirt racing and training. It has been my experience that horses come back much fresher in general after turf sprints than any other type of race.

The racing card at Dubai is of much greater all around quality than the Breeders Cup. There are many horses in the BC that are not much more than allowances horses. I would have to think that George Washington's breakdown would be a stretch to blame on drugs.

Everybody tells me that we train our horses too soft but Allen Jerkens who is about the only trainer left from the older generation tells me that he had to lighten his training schedules because the horses simply werent holding up.

The Indomitable DrugS · #20 03-30-2008, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The racing card at Dubai is of much greater all around quality than the Breeders Cup.

I don't agree at all as far as the dirt races are concerned.

And as far as the turf races go - we tend to get the top few horses from Europe in most years...while the Dubai World Cup comes at a time when Europe's best are on the sidelines.

If you look at this years World Cup - it was basically a showcase for South African turf horses and American dirt horses.

The only reason America doesn't own the UAE Derby is because none of our decent 3yo's go there...unless it's a case like with Discreet Cat or Express Tour and Street Cry where they are Godolphin owned runners who were American 2yo's.