Big Brown - Overrated?

[Travis Stone]

"Narrowly".. haha, yea, typo on my part. Smoke was flying off my fingers!!

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

"Narrowly".. haha, yea, typo on my part. Smoke was flying off my fingers!!

Haha ... just supporting your argument. Agree with all that you posted.

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Yes, why allow reasonable thinking to get in the way of your myopic view.

The problem I have with any of this, including deciding where BB fits while ranking him against other 3 year olds of even THIS decade is that it is entirely possible that BB could win the Belmont against competition that is at best less than a competitive graded stakes race. If the Belmont is his last competitive race and he never looks in the eye of worthy competition mid stretch, how does history anyone know how BB would have handled a moment of challenge where his heart could be measured by having to overcome a foe in front of him in the final furlong of any significant race.

Are not the finest, swiftest and legendary performers of the sport measured by their response to moments of truth and not Beyers or negative TGH numbers? If the horse never sees worthy competition that challenge his best how will you ever know if he is not deserving of being compared to the best the sport has seen. It is not the horses fault that greed and premature retirement have currently ruined this sport. Winning from the outside in the Florida or Ky. Derby is not by itself cause to be canonized but it doesn't mean he is clearly undeserving of that status as an undefeated champion either.

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I could never agree with putting a horse like Smarty Jones ahead of Curlin in terms of respective 3YO campaigns.

NT

Kinda silly example since Smarty was "injured"
and did not run past the Belmont therefore never
encountered older.

It would be interesting to see how a quarter crack
opening back up would effect things... before the Belmont.
Dont want to see it happen. But it would
create some interesting situations and evaluations.

[goodcopy]

Man all you people who cant' appreciate a horse that comes along every 30 years does every thing asked of him with ease are one of the reason this sport is in trouble!
Give me a breake,if this colt wins at "Big Sandy"(Belmont)and is alowed to race at least once against Curlin and other older horses this year or next you have to put him in the top 15 to 20 horses all time!

[ArlJim78]

We need WarranT back.

[blackthroatedwind]

Once again......oy vey.

[ateamstupid]

As much as I enjoy TC season, a lot of the posts on this board in the past few days make me want it to go away.

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by goodcopy

Man all you people who cant' appreciate a horse that comes along every 30 years does every thing asked of him with ease are one of the reason this sport is in trouble!
Give me a breake,if this colt wins at "Big Sandy"(Belmont)and is alowed to race at least once against Curlin and other older horses this year or next you have to put him in the top 15 to 20 horses all time!

Again 30 days would be a nice period of time to first post.......

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

If you want my opinion, here it is: Your list stinks.

First off all, Lion Heart is a runner-up and that only in any Triple Crown race which, based upon the skewed logic you've presented, disqualifies him to a spot well below say more than a dozen 3-year-olds included and not included in your list. But because I'm off tomorrow, I'll play.

Street Sense is a Kentucky Derby winner, a Preakness runner-up, a Jim Dandy winner, a Travers winner and a runner-up against elders in the Kentucky Cup. How, in a million years that qualifies him for a lower spot than a horse like Lion Heart is flabbergasting.

Or how Afleet Alex, who won the Arkansas Derby, was a Derby runner-up, a Preakness winner and a Belmont winner is below Lion Heart is good for a segment on The Daily Show.

Here's one which really made me laugh... Flower Alley ABOVE Birdstone! Flower Alley won the Travers, Birdstone won the BELMONT STAKES AND THE TRAVERS!!!! Oh my!!!!

While you are right that KG has Lionheart too high on his list you are completely off base on everything else. Comparing accomplishments in races is meaningless without factoring in competition. If Big Brown finished fifth in the Travers behind Curlin, Bernardini, Barbaro, and Smarty Jones in a 110 Beyer would that make him a worse horse than Anak Nakal if he won the Travers beating Tomcito, Spark Candle, Court Vision, and Monba in a 92 Beyer? Of course not. You really think Jazil and Birdstone are better than Alydar cause they won a Triple Crown race? How fast a horse is it what needs to be compared, not what cheap wins you pick up against crappy competition.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

While you are right that KG has Lionheart too high on his list you are completely off base on everything else. Comparing accomplishments in races is meaningless without factoring in competition. If Big Brown finished fifth in the Travers behind Curlin, Bernardini, Barbaro, and Smarty Jones in a 110 Beyer would that make him a worse horse than Anak Nakal if he won the Travers beating Tomcito, Spark Candle, Court Vision, and Monba in a 92 Beyer? Of course not. You really think Jazil and Birdstone are better than Alydar cause they won a Triple Crown race? How fast a horse is it what needs to be compared, not what cheap wins you pick up against crappy competition.

Do you really think that Lion Heart was better than Street Sense and Afleet Alex? Not me. I also don't think Flower Alley was better than Birdstone.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Do you really think that Lion Heart was better than Street Sense and Afleet Alex? Not me. I also don't think Flower Alley was better than Birdstone.

I said I don't agree with King putting Lionheart that high but at the same time the arguments against were completely the wrong way to think about things.

[sumitas]

Originally Posted by goodcopy

Man all you people who cant' appreciate a horse that comes along every 30 years does every thing asked of him with ease are one of the reason this sport is in trouble!
Give me a breake,if this colt wins at "Big Sandy"(Belmont)and is alowed to race at least once against Curlin and other older horses this year or next you have to put him in the top 15 to 20 horses all time!

Dutrow only shoots him up with steroids once a month. But that's just a small matter.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

I said I don't agree with King putting Lionheart that high but at the same time the arguments against were completely the wrong way to think about things.

Guess I didn't read it as carefully as you, but I doubt he thinks Jazil and Birdstone were better than Alydar was.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Guess I didn't read it as carefully as you, but I doubt he thinks Jazil and Birdstone were better than Alydar was.

By his logic you'd have to rank both of them ahead of him.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

If you want my opinion, here it is: Your list stinks.

First off all, Lion Heart is a runner-up and that only in any Triple Crown race which, based upon the skewed logic you've presented, disqualifies him to a spot well below say more than a dozen 3-year-olds included and not included in your list. But because I'm off tomorrow, I'll play.

Street Sense is a Kentucky Derby winner, a Preakness runner-up, a Jim Dandy winner, a Travers winner and a runner-up against elders in the Kentucky Cup. How, in a million years that qualifies him for a lower spot than a horse like Lion Heart is flabbergasting.

Or how Afleet Alex, who won the Arkansas Derby, was a Derby runner-up, a Preakness winner and a Belmont winner is below Lion Heart is good for a segment on The Daily Show.

Here's one which really made me laugh... Flower Alley ABOVE Birdstone! Flower Alley won the Travers, Birdstone won the BELMONT STAKES AND THE TRAVERS!!!! Oh my!!!!

Flower Alley also ran second in the BC Classic. Better than Birdstone did. I feel like Flower Alley during the second half of his 3yo season was a better horse than Birdstone was during his.

The list though is not just about accomplishments. If it were, of course Lion Heart would be much further down the list. But my opinions are based on my perception of their abilities. Didn't know there was a right or wrong there but I'm glad you set me straight. Thank you for your opinions. I'm glad I was able to make you laugh.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

By his logic you'd have to rank both of them ahead of him.

In your haste to criticize Travis you didn't take the time to understand his post. He was simply pointing out that using the logic that KG presented to him that his list was skewed.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

In your haste to criticize Travis you didn't take the time to understand his post. He was simply pointing out that using the logic that KG presented to him that his list was skewed.

The logic with El Gato Malo in it? I'm pretty sure that one was dripping with sarcasm.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

In your haste to criticize Travis you didn't take the time to understand his post. He was simply pointing out that using the logic that KG presented to him that his list was skewed.

How was my logic skewed? I didn't present any criteria that had to be met in order to be included in any discussion. I just asked a simple question. It's my opinion that had he not broken his leg, Lion Heart was home free in the Travers after that crawling pace. It's my opinion that if he had won that race and beat the Belmont winner in the process, that win along with the Haskell win, the two biggest races of the second half of the year for 3yo's and two of the top 5-6 of the entire year for the division, combined with his runner-up finish in the Derby.......would not have made his inclusion on any list a silly notion. It's your opinion that he wouldn't have won that Travers anyway so I know where you come out on it. I was just asking his opinion on how he felt the race might have played out and if he thought Lion Heart could have won, where that might have placed him. I wasn't presenting any criteria nor logic but merely asking his opinion. Why he felt the need to throw in how mine stinks is something I'll just have to figure out and live with.