Big Brown and Winstrol....questions

[The Bid]

Winstrol really wouldnt do anything for a mass or a strength gain, so I doubt very seriously it would move a horse up in the least. When used in body building its exclusive for cutting and reducing. You can get it for 5 bucks an amp, so no its not expensive. At the racetrack you can get it for about 50, so it becomes more expensive. Really the only steroids that could help a horse from a performance standpoint would be something like a Trenbolon Acetate. I would question if Equipoise even really helps a horse. The addition of steroids is probably is a big reason a lot of our horses bleed. I cannot imagine a shot of Winny, or EQ, or Deca, would really impact a horses performance.

If used correctly Winstrol is injected every 3-4 days in humans. In horses they pop them once a month with a big dose.

I believe Dutrow when he said his vet advised that he uses Stanazol, and he infact doesnt know what it does. It really doesnt do anything, makes them eat a little more and probably drop some water.

[pgiaco]

Originally Posted by zippyneedsawin

I bet Big Brown can throw a 100 MPH fastball.

Hellacious splitter too.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by The Bid

I believe Dutrow when he said his vet advised that he uses Stanazol, and he infact doesnt know what it does. It really doesnt do anything, makes them eat a little more and probably drop some water.

I don't believe Dutrow for a minute when he says that he doesn't know why Winstrol is given to his horses. However, assuming that the statement is true, it begs the question as to who's running the barn: Dutrow or his vets.

[The Bid]

What do you think Winstrol does? I dont think it does much of anything for a horse, if anything its just a big markup for the vet. If you pay 5 bucks for an amp and resell for 50-70 bucks thats pretty strong. If Dutrow has 70 in training and they all get 1 shot of Stanazol per month at track prices that vets hitting pretty good. You could make a very good living going around giving horses a shot of winstrol, its hard to believe a vet wouldnt recommend that shot. It wont do anything negative, very little, if any positive, and you make a killing.

[parsixfarms]

The trainers that we have used do not have their horses on a steady diet of steroids (mostly for fear of some of the side effects they have observed, particularly very aggressive behavior). That being said, my understanding is that they have typically used Winstrol - as suggested in the articles noted elsewhere in this thread - when a horse has lost weight or is off its feed, sometimes both.

[sumitas]

Horse care 101

http://www.gaylevanleer.com/ownership/vets.htm

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by rontheman1964

Ok, we now know this horse is being injected with a legal steroid (winstrol) on the 15th of every month. Besides the obvious muscle growth this steroid promotes; is anyone worried about possible side effects down the road?

Does anyone on this board know how common is it to give steroids to horses as part of their normal routine? (not to heal an injury) Do all of Dutrow's horses get winstrol? Is it expensive?

If he breaks down on the track do we question why steroids are legal for equine athletes in 28 of the 38 states? (too much 'manufactured' muscle for his skeleton and tendons to support.)

If he wins the Triple Crown do we put an asterisk next to his name like Barry Bonds?

Just asking some questions about this sport where people (some good some bad) get to make the decisions for the equine athletes.

You have to be very careful about giving steroids to fillies, if you are planning on breeding the fillies after they retire. Steroids can lessen their chances of being able to get in foal.

[sumitas]

The race horses are juiced up steroid freaks. At all ages it seems. From the sales to the track. Put a big * next to these horses in the steroid era.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by sumitas

The race horses are juiced up steroid freaks. At all ages it seems. From the sales to the track. Put a big * next to these horses in the steroid era.

So, in other words, most of the performers for the last 30 years or so?

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Kasept

So, in other words, most of the performers for the last 30 years or so?

I don't think there were many guys using steroids in the 1980s. There were a few, but not many. I think it's been the last 15 years or so that the usage has gone up 10x. D Wayne was one of the only guys using steroids in the 1980s and it gave him a big edge, especially with his 2 year olds, who were as mature as 3 year olds due to the steroids.

Right now, I wouldn't even say that the majority of horses are on steroids. I get all of our vet bills and we use about 7 different trainers. Most of our trainers rarely use steroids.

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%. I'm not a big fan of guys who do that. Steroids are not going to help every horse. It depends on the horse. Steroids can move some horses way up, but it can make other horses much worse.

[TheSpyder]

Thanks for the view from the inside RP. Nice to hear some facts for a change.

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think there were many guys using steroids in the 1980s. There were a few, but not many. I think it's been the last 15 years or so that the usage has gone up 10x. D Wayne was one of the only guys using steroids in the 1980s and it gave him a big edge, especially with his 2 year olds, who were as mature as 3 year olds due to the steroids.

Right now, I wouldn't even say that the majority of horses are on steroids. I get all of our vet bills and we use about 7 different trainers. Most of our trainers rarely use steroids.

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%. I'm not a big fan of guys who do that. Steroids are not going to help every horse. It depends on the horse. Steroids can move some horses way up, but it can make other horses much worse.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%.

The number I hear is typically about twice that.. Areas of the country preparing to come off steroid programs will certainly be ahead of the curve in ending treatment with it.. It's days are numbered obviously, but I find it laughable that it's being used as the magic cure for 'drugs in racing'. The steroids aren't the problem...

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I don't think there were many guys using steroids in the 1980s. There were a few, but not many. I think it's been the last 15 years or so that the usage has gone up 10x. D Wayne was one of the only guys using steroids in the 1980s and it gave him a big edge, especially with his 2 year olds, who were as mature as 3 year olds due to the steroids.

Right now, I wouldn't even say that the majority of horses are on steroids. I get all of our vet bills and we use about 7 different trainers. Most of our trainers rarely use steroids.

Right now there are some trainers out there who just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. I couldn't tell you exactly what percentage of trainers do that, but my guess would be about 30%. I'm not a big fan of guys who do that. Steroids are not going to help every horse. It depends on the horse. Steroids can move some horses way up, but it can make other horses much worse.

Many big guys in the 80's Rup. but even that would be hard to prove ,I can remember back as far as the late 70's people around the track using steroids at places called Waterford Park , Penn National , Commodore Downs, very cheap tracks with very cheap horses and most trainers did their own vet work.
I really dont have an issue with using a lil steroids here and there preferibly Winstrol over Equipoise , Equipoise has a very dramatic effect on a horses demeaner while Winstrol doesnt and does help with getting horses to eat .
Thankfully I work for someone who hardly ever uses steroids at all , but as long as it is legal I dont see why it should put any kind of a notation next to a horses name , because believe me Big Brown has enough natural talent to win on jellybeans.

[pgiaco]

In my time in the game I've had two horses, both fillies, treated with winstrol. Both were bad eaters and had trouble putting on weight after layoffs. While they were able to muscle up it certainly didn't make them any faster. Can't say I'd rush into using it routinely and I am in favor of just getting rid of them.

Also haven't seen anybody mention the death of Absolute Champion in Hong Kong. Haven't heard the hue and cry of the drugs/dirt track people piping up to explain this.......

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by pgiaco

In my time in the game I've had two horses, both fillies, treated with winstrol. Both were bad eaters and had trouble putting on weight after layoffs. While they were able to muscle up it certainly didn't make them any faster. Can't say I'd rush into using it routinely and I am in favor of just getting rid of them.

Also haven't seen anybody mention the death of Absolute Champion in Hong Kong. Haven't heard the hue and cry of the drugs/dirt track people piping up to explain this.......

it was covered in the international section, of course not as many people are aware of it, so the hue and cry is much less. also because its not our jurisdiction. something smells about that incident, and I think it needs investigating. miss storm cat knows much more about it. I think its more to do with whether the horse was sound to race or not.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Honu

Many big guys in the 80's Rup. but even that would be hard to prove ,I can remember back as far as the late 70's people around the track using steroids at places called Waterford Park , Penn National , Commodore Downs, very cheap tracks with very cheap horses and most trainers did their own vet work.
I really dont have an issue with using a lil steroids here and there preferibly Winstrol over Equipoise , Equipoise has a very dramatic effect on a horses demeaner while Winstrol doesnt and does help with getting horses to eat .
Thankfully I work for someone who hardly ever uses steroids at all , but as long as it is legal I dont see why it should put any kind of a notation next to a horses name , because believe me Big Brown has enough natural talent to win on jellybeans.

It's funny how some trainers love steroids to the point where they just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. Then other trainers, such as your boss have the comple opposite view. I remember the first horse we ever had with you was that filly that we bought privately from a trainer on the east coast. The first thing that RM said when the filly came in was that we needed to give her some time to get all the steroids out of her system. He thought that steroids were the worst thing for that filly. I think he was right. He gave her about 2-3 months and then she won a graded stakes race.

[pgiaco]

AJ, my point is that it seems to some that the US is the only place horses break down because they are all drugged and running on dirt surfaces. A horse can break down under any circumstances and I think US racing takes a lot of crap from people who don't know squat about the game.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Kasept

The number I hear is typically about twice that.. Areas of the country preparing to come off steroid programs will certainly be ahead of the curve in ending treatment with it.. It's days are numbered obviously, but I find it laughable that it's being used as the magic cure for 'drugs in racing'. The steroids aren't the problem...

I wouldn't have such a problem with steroids, if guys were using them judiciously with only the horses that need them. But unfortunately that's not the case. You have guys abusing them.

I agree with you that getting rid of steroids certainly isn't a "cure all" for drugs in racing, but I don't think it's a bad place to start. They have to start somewhere. I wish they would get rid of all the drugs. But even if they banned all the drugs, the cheating trainers would still be using undetectable drugs that aren't tested for. That's why we really need to do something similar to Hong Kong where there are cameras everywhere and the barn area is very secure. I know it would be expensive but I think it would pay huge dividends in the long run. I think the handle would increase dramatically once the public had the confidence that the sport was clean.

[SentToStud]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I wouldn't have such a problem with steroids, if guys were using them judiciously with only the horses that need them. But unfortunately that's not the case. You have guys abusing them.

I agree with you that getting rid of steroids certainly isn't a "cure all" for drugs in racing, but I don't think it's a bad place to start. They have to start somewhere. I wish they would get rid of all the drugs. But even if they banned all the drugs, the cheating trainers would still be using undetectable drugs that aren't tested for. That's why we really need to do something similar to Hong Kong where there are cameras everywhere and the barn area is very secure. I know it would be expensive but I think it would pay huge dividends in the long run. I think the handle would increase dramatically once the public had the confidence that the sport was clean.

Absolutely. What would likely happen is that it would be costly to begin with and some owners and trainers of cheaper horses would go out of business as well as some of the race tracks that depend on them to run.

The drug issue is a bottom up problem. The widespread use and abuse is most prevalent at the lower levels and since penalties are not tough, you are going to have many cheating at all levels.

Too many bad racetracks running too many bad races for too many bad horses.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

It's funny how some trainers love steroids to the point where they just automatically put all of their horses on a regular steroid regimen. Then other trainers, such as your boss have the comple opposite view. I remember the first horse we ever had with you was that filly that we bought privately from a trainer on the east coast. The first thing that RM said when the filly came in was that we needed to give her some time to get all the steroids out of her system. He thought that steroids were the worst thing for that filly. I think he was right. He gave her about 2-3 months and then she won a graded stakes race.

Dude that filly def. did not need steroids , lol , omg on hay and oats she was still like getting a tiger by the tail.