Tips/Thoughts on Breeders' Cup tickets this year? - Page 52

Danzig · #**1021** 10-26-2008, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

For what it's worth I feel no different about Curlin today as I did before the Classic. So much for hurting his legacy...

funny you say that...neither do i.

Danzig · #**1022** 10-26-2008, 10:20 AM

well, i hope he gets to keep midnight lute in training...because i don't know what will happen with midshipman because of his new owners.
and then i read this from drf:

Where and how Midshipman prepares for next year's Kentucky Derby is uncertain. John Ferguson, a racing adviser for Sheikh Mohammed said "there's every possibility" the horse could winter in Dubai and be transferred to trainer Saeed bin Suroor, but "nothing's definite".

at least he has vineyard haven.

Betsy · #**1023** 10-26-2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

zenyatta isn't in the running for top 3 yo filly, but has the mare championship sewn up. i just wish she'd have run in the classic, but maybe next year....since it's in her backyard again. and yes, i know, she won on dirt-that wasn't a knock on her ability on a surface, but she obviously likes santa anita.
anyway, as for goldikova...i have an issue with any horse coming here, running once, and winning the award-i didn't like it when high chaparral did the same. these awards are for imo the top horses for the year, here. goldikova didn't run here all year, she ran here once. a breathtaking performance, but not one which i feel negates any and all racing by every other 3 yo we had here running and winning.

I completely agree with your last paragraph - I could see Goldlikova IF there were no worthy 3 year old fillies out there. However, both PS and MN are legitimate championship-caliber fillies with outstanding campaigns. Goldlikova will probably get votes from silly writers, but she has no shot.

Also, I think I might have to give the Eclipse for male turf horse to Conduit simply on the basis that there is no way on earth I could justify giving it to Kip Deville (who I like) based on his one win in a graded stakes at Belmont, a bad race at Woodbine and a good 2nd in the BC. That is a weak, weak resume for a champion.

Danzig · #**1024** 10-26-2008, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betsy

I completely agree with your last paragraph - I could see Goldlikova IF there were no worthy 3 year old fillies out there. However, both PS and MN are legitimate championship-caliber fillies with outstanding campaigns. Goldlikova will probably get votes from silly writers, but she has no shot.

Also, I think I might have to give the Eclipse for male turf horse to Conduit simply on the basis that there is no way on earth I could justify giving it to Kip Deville (who I like) based on his one win in a graded stakes at Belmont, a bad race at Woodbine and a good 2nd in the BC. That is a weak, weak resume for a champion.

or they could give it to ravens pass.

miraja2 · #**1025** 10-26-2008, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

well, i hope he gets to keep midnight lute in training...because i don't know what will happen with midshipman because of his new owners.
and then i read this from drf:

Where and how Midshipman prepares for next year's Kentucky Derby is uncertain. John Ferguson, a racing adviser for Sheikh Mohammed said "there's every possibility" the horse could winter in Dubai and be transferred to trainer Saeed bin Suroor, but "nothing's definite".

at least he has vineyard haven.

He is by Unbridleds Song and out of an Avenue of Flags mare.
He'll be lucky if he can still walk by next May.

justindew · #**1026** 10-26-2008, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Under this thinking she would finish a distant second to Zarkava.

Surely ( though, in this case, Shirley seems more appropriate ) Justin could have returned with a more thought out post.

Except Zarkava never ran in the US. Don't horses need at least one North American start to be eligible for an Eclipse Award?

Pedigree Ann · #**1027** 10-26-2008, 10:30 AM

The idea that one race can define the champion of division is an abomination. Racing is not like baseball or basketball, where you win your way up the brackets until you win a championship in a single contest. Racing is more like golf, or NASCAR; it is the body of work that defines a championship. We all know that an unknown can, with a combination of luck and a perfect match of skills and conditions, win the Open, the biggest golf tournament; but winning the Open does not make him the equal or superior of Tiger Woods, even if he beats Tiger in the process.

The Eclipse Awards are United States racing awards; Canada has the Sovereign Awards. Races in other countries should not be considered for Eclipse Awards; they have their own championships for racing there.

Just my own, old-style opinion. I still remember when top horses raced every two or three weeks, like claimers do today, and 6 to 8 weeks was a layoff. You newbies have no idea how wonderfully exciting it was to follow a horse in those days.

Betsy · #**1028** 10-26-2008, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

or they could give it to ravens pass.

Maybe they need a new division for "European horses too good for American horses, but with not enough starts in the US to qualify".

You could've made a case for Grand Couturier, I suppose, but he finished nowhere. Maybe no one should get the award.

Betsy · #**1029** 10-26-2008, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

The idea that one race can define the champion of division is an abomination. Racing is not like baseball or basketball, where you win your way up the brackets until you win a championship in a single contest. Racing is more like golf, or NASCAR; it is the body of work that defines a championship. We all know that an unknown can, with a combination of luck and a perfect match of skills and conditions, win the Open, the biggest golf tournament; but winning the Open does not make him the equal or superior of Tiger Woods, even if he beats Tiger in the process.

The Eclipse Awards are United States racing awards; Canada has the Sovereign Awards. Races in other countries should not be considered for Eclipse Awards; they have their own championships for racing there.

Just my own, old-style opinion. I still remember when top horses raced every two or three weeks, like claimers do today, and 6 to 8 weeks was a layoff. You newbies have no idea how wonderfully exciting it was to follow a horse in those days.

I agree - I would never, ever consider a horse's overseas form for a championship. My thinking on Conduit is just based on yesterday. If there were a worthy American turf male who just had a bad day yesterday, then I wouldn't consider Conduit.

geeker2 · #**1030** 10-26-2008, 10:34 AM

On the track...Curlin looked like he would crush..he looked magnificent.

He made a great run around the turn and it looked like he would just keep going.

When he walked back after the race..people in the stands stood and applauded.

That was my view from Section M.

miraja2 · #**1031** 10-26-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSC

For what it's worth I feel no different about Curlin today as I did before the Classic.

Nor should you. He is a very good dirt horse that wasn't running on the dirt.
On the turf and synthetic, he's just not as good.

When it comes to the dirt, he is/was a pretty good horse. As KG said, there is no way he is even the best horse of the decade, let alone the last 25 years, but that has very little to do with what happened yesterday.

Pedigree Ann · #**1032** 10-26-2008, 10:46 AM

Before they calved off the 'female turf category', we could have given the turf championship to Forever Together with a clear conscience, even if she hadn't beaten the boys the way a Drumtop or All Along did. As it stands, the season isn't quite over yet.

Danzig · #**1033** 10-26-2008, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miraja2

He is by Unbridleds Song and out of an Avenue of Flags mare.
He'll be lucky if he can still walk by next May.

i would question his ability on real dirt...but yeah, you have a point.

2Hot4TV · #**1034** 10-26-2008, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

He made the move that won most of the BC "dirt" races this year. Just wasnt good enough. Losing to Ravens Pass isnt something to be ashamed of. Getting outfinished for third by Tiago is. The last 2 races he won by small margins over weak horses were chalked up to his only doing what he had to do to win. I still believe he just isnt as great as his fans believe him to be and has been fortunate to run in the era of the worst older horses, probably ever. He is a very good horse but not in the top 50 of all time and certainly not the best of the last 25 years. Clever Trevor, by the way, would be a full fledged star nowadays.

LoL I needed Curlin to finish 3rd and started crying when Tiago went by him.

Beaten by Tiago and its the surface?????Maybe Curlin is on a down cycle?

Hwjb · #**1035** 10-26-2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedigree Ann

The idea that one race can define the champion of division is an abomination. Racing is not like baseball or basketball, where you win your way up the brackets until you win a championship in a single contest. Racing is more like golf, or NASCAR; it is the body of work that defines a championship. We all know that an unknown can, with a combination of luck and a perfect match of skills and conditions, win the Open, the biggest golf tournament; but winning the Open does not make him the equal or superior of Tiger Woods, even if he beats Tiger in the process.

The Eclipse Awards are United States racing awards; Canada has the Sovereign Awards. Races in other countries should not be considered for Eclipse Awards; they have their own championships for racing there.

Just my own, old-style opinion. I still remember when top horses raced every two or three weeks, like claimers do today, and 6 to 8 weeks was a layoff. You newbies have no idea how wonderfully exciting it was to follow a horse in those days.

So horses are getting awards for merely turning up, never mind how badly they get arsed?

King Glorious · #**1036** 10-26-2008, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Under this thinking she would finish a distant second to Zarkava.

Surely ( though, in this case, Shirley seems more appropriate ) Justin could have returned with a more thought out post.

But Zarkava never ran in North America. The criteria for the award says that a horse has to have made at least one NA start, hence why Singspiel won it even though he never won in the U.S.

10 pnt move up · #**1037** 10-26-2008, 11:21 AM

Its a north american award, IMO its for races run in north america.

King Glorious · #**1038** 10-26-2008, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danzig

zenyatta isn't in the running for top 3 yo filly, but has the mare championship sewn up. i just wish she'd have run in the classic, but maybe next year....since it's in her backyard again. and yes, i know, she won on dirt-that wasn't a knock on her ability on a surface, but she obviously likes santa anita.
anyway, as for goldikova...i have an issue with any horse coming here, running once, and winning the award-i didn't like it when high chaparral did the same. these awards are for imo the top horses for the year, here. goldikova didn't run here all year, she ran here once. a breathtaking performance, but not one which i feel negates any and all racing by every other 3 yo we had here running and winning.

While I understand that sentiment and don't entirely disagree with it, I think that in light of how the voting has always been done and with the precedent being clearly set, she has to be considered. I would have no problem if they changed the criteria and said a horse had to have at least four starts here or something like that in order to be eligible. But with the them always having awarded horses in the past off of only a single start and with that still being the only listed requirement, it doesn't make much sense to penalize Goldikova when she did the same thing as Pebbles, Miesque (2x), Banks Hill, Islington, and Ouija Board (2x).

King Glorious · #**1039** 10-26-2008, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Its a north american award, IMO its for races run in north america.

I'm not sure but I think that the BC Mile was run in North America yesterday. I know a lot of the rest of the country considers California to be another country but officially, it's still in the U.S.

As I just said to Danzig though, I don't necessarily disagree with your feelings but they need to change the criteria on the award then. Until then, if one start was good enough to win it for those others, it's good enough for Goldikova.

Cannon Shell · #**1040** 10-26-2008, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2Hot4TV

LoL I needed Curlin to finish 3rd and started crying when Tiago went by him.

Beaten by Tiago and its the surface?????Maybe Curlin is on a down cycle?

I would like to know how the surface is blamed for Curlin's loss other than him finishing 4th. It is one of those things that cant be quantified exactly. His last2 races have not been great and he made his run and got to the lead in the stretch. Maybe, just maybe, he isnt this invincible superhorse that has been fed to us all year. He is a very good horse, there is no shame in simply being a very good horse.