Gotham Stakes

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

I'm tired of all this status quo BS. I worked on the backstretch and I have a pretty good idea what can and what can't be done. I'm sick and tired of hearing bettors REPEATING what LAZY/INCOMPETENT horsemen have been spewing for years. Yes, I realize that horses can be difficult but I'm tired of hearing that horses can ONLY do this or that: needs the lead; is headstrong; doesn't want to run behind horses; won't run on the inside. BULL ****. Each horse should be treated as an individual (case). Spend enough time with a horse and 'strange' things happen.

Tell you an interesting story about a cheap old out-of-town claimer that eventually won a nice allowance race in NYC, at BEL, running 1:09 and change. Had a nice run for a while. It's funny that this was a need the lead type in all of his previous races. In fact, he was so aggressive, that you couldn't even WALK HIM BEHIND horses in the barn; he had to in front of them. YET, the trainer was able to get him to rate and win. Wonder why that was? Yeah, the horse has to 'cooperate' and the jock needs to have a clue BUT the trainer also needs to TEACH the horse. Can't be that difficult to do because I don't see too many INTELLECTUALS on the backstretch. Seems that even OLD GELDINGS can learn to do new things.

To get a sense of where this game is in terms of technology, compare the teams involved in other forms of racing, auto and bike, for example, the work involved in getting ready for a race, with the 'teams' (laughable) in horse racing. Time to really catch up with the times.

I don't disagree but you are getting into a different area here. We are talking about 3 yr olds on the trail. Trainers don't tend to take the time or have the time to turn a horses' natural tendencies around. Owners press to see what kind of horse they have. An old gelding is an entirely different category of horse in this sense. Heck, I am not gelded but I'll be darned if I ain't more compliant with doing things a bit differently these days. More so than when I was younger and thought I knew everything.

[Linny]

Cappy has a point. It's one thing to work with an older horse that you claim and try to change is style, another to suddenly change a horse 7 weeks before the horses biggest career race. Would it have made sense in early march to have tried to teach Congaree or Spend a Buck or Affirmed to be a closer? You dance with what brought you at this point.

I agree that some horses can and do learn new tactics. Some never will. You might get them to rate kindly but they don't like the kickback or they find that they just don't like going out and passing horses. I have found that most speedball types are merely horses that don't care to change gears or paths in the middle of a race. They go as fast and as far as they can but they aren't adjustable and when you rate them they just gallop around.

What they do in the morning often doesn't translate into the real world in the afternoon. Some riders are pretty good at settling a horse without fighting, Ramon D and Calvin do a nice job taking a long hold.

[Sightseek]

Are entries drawn today?


Trivia time!

The Gotham was once a division of another race. What race was it, and at what distance was it run?

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Are entries drawn today?


Trivia time!

The Gotham was once a division of another race. What race was it, and at what distance was it run?

Another name? No idea. One mile.

Which two great horses and what son of the only Gotham victor to win the derby ran 2nd in the derby after winning the Gotham?

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

Which two great horses and what son of the only Gotham victor to win the derby ran 2nd in the derby after winning the Gotham?

General Assembly.. Easy Goer..

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Are entries drawn today?


Trivia time!

The Gotham was once a division of another race. What race was it, and at what distance was it run?

Entries drawn tomorrow.. Santa Anita draws the Big Cap card today though which includes the Kilroe, Oaks and Honest Lady in addition to the feature.

Not sure what you mean Nic when you ask about Gotham as a division of another race. The Gotham has been run in 2 divisions itself a number of times including the inaugural in '53 which Native Dancer and Laffango split it. It was run in divisions in 1974-75 and 1983 as well.

It was run at 8.5f 1953-1959 at Jamaica, and then moved to Aqueduct in 1960 and cut to 1 mile. In 1977 and 1979 it was again 8.5f. In 1958 it was for 4 year olds and up.

What's the division of another race answer???

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Entries drawn tomorrow.. Santa Anita draws the Big Cap card today though which includes the Kilroe, Oaks and Honest Lady in addition to the feature.

Not sure what you mean Nic when you ask about Gotham as a division of another race. The Gotham has been run in 2 divisions itself a number of times including the inaugural in '53 which Native Dancer and Laffango split it. It was run in divisions in 1974-75 and 1983 as well.

It was run at 8.5f 1953-1959 at Jamaica, and then moved to Aqueduct in 1960 and cut to 1 mile. In 1977 and 1979 it was again 8.5f. In 1958 it was for 4 year olds and up.

What's the division of another race answer???

Entries are drawn today. Aqu does a double draw on Wednesdays now for Fri and Sat.

I can't wait to see the morning line on Ventura against the boys in the Kilroe, where if the horses who are being pointed to it go, she might be 3/5.

NT

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Entries are drawn today. Aqu does a double draw on Wednesdays now for Fri and Sat.

I can't wait to see the morning line on Ventura against the boys in the Kilroe, where if the horses who are being pointed to it go, she might be 3/5.

NT

Thx Nick.. I noticed the Wed. for Sat. the last couple weeks but didn't know it was going to stick.

The whole card Saturday at SA should be great fun...

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Thx Nick.. I noticed the Wed. for Sat. the last couple weeks but didn't know it was going to stick.

The whole card Saturday at SA should be great fun...

We began drawing Saturday on Wednesday, and Sunday on Thursday, the first week of the year......and I believe this was discussed here.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Entries drawn tomorrow.. Santa Anita draws the Big Cap card today though which includes the Kilroe, Oaks and Honest Lady in addition to the feature.

Not sure what you mean Nic when you ask about Gotham as a division of another race. The Gotham has been run in 2 divisions itself a number of times including the inaugural in '53 which Native Dancer and Laffango split it. It was run in divisions in 1974-75 and 1983 as well.

It was run at 8.5f 1953-1959 at Jamaica, and then moved to Aqueduct in 1960 and cut to 1 mile. In 1977 and 1979 it was again 8.5f. In 1958 it was for 4 year olds and up.

What's the division of another race answer???

Apparently someone hasn't been reading the Blood-Horse.

When I get home, I'll make better notes on this, but in the years prior to Native Dancer it was a race that only the horses who were weighted in the Experimental Handicap could enter and they were forced to carry the weight they were assigned. I believe Vosburgh thought up the idea (I'll have to confirm this when I get home) but eventually, as more options on the Stakes calendar popped up, horseman were less inclined to run in this race because of the wide spreads of weight.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

Apparently someone hasn't been reading the Blood-Horse.

American Racing Manual..

Originally Posted by Sightseek

When I get home, I'll make better notes on this, but in the years prior to Native Dancer it was a race that only the horses who were weighted in the Experimental Handicap could enter and they were forced to carry the weight they were assigned. I believe Vosburgh thought up the idea (I'll have to confirm this when I get home) but eventually, as more options on the Stakes calendar popped up, horseman were less inclined to run in this race because of the wide spreads of weight.

Interesting.. I've never seen that referenced. Should be in the A.R.M. though if I poke around...

[sumitas]

Mr Fantasy is a 1/2 to Tin Cup Chalice .

One never knows for sure about any race . That's why they have the race, I suppose . In the Hollie Hughes 5 yr old Mor Chances led at all calls for the first time in his career .

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Kasept

American Racing Manual..


Interesting.. I've never seen that referenced. Should be in the A.R.M. though if I poke around...

Here are some more notes for you:

* The first Experimental was carded by Walter S. Vosburgh, the highweight of 126 lbs was given to First Minstrel, a pound more than Cavalcade - his goal was to make the hypothetical experimental a reality

* In April 1940 Jamaica Race Course put up $5,000 for a 6 furlong race called the Experimental Handicap as a prep for the Wood Memorial

* Two restrictions were put on this race
1) only those horses who were weighted on the Experimental Free Handicap were eligible to run
2) the horses had to carry the weights they were assigned in the EFH

* 1942 the name was changed to the Experimental Free Handicap - the winner that year, Apache would be the first winner to run in the Derby (11th)

* 1944 the EFH was split into two divisions - this also marked the first year the highweight ran (Pukka Gin)

* 1946 - Experimental Free Handicap- No. 2 at 1 1/16 is run for the first time, Assault won the 6 furlong, Experimental Free-No. 1 that year on the way to capturing the Triple Crown

* 1952 last Experimental Free Handicap- No. 2 is run and renamed the Gotham for the next year


Schmitz, David. "Noble Experiment." Blood-Horse 14 February 2009: 622.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Alan Garcia thinks Taqarub can rate this weekend at Gulfstream. I tend to agree with him....he will rate....and run last. No disrespect, but I want to see speed types rate in a competitive horserace before I believe they can do it. Most of the time, they can't.

Well you had that one nailed regarding Taqarub.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by Danzig

it's not whether the rider can hold him, it's whether the horse is willing to do as he's told. no rider will fight a horse and win the battle-either the horse will relax, or he'll fight himself into exhaustion-which won't win him the race.

As an example of that, look at Mig's ride on Brilliant Son last Saturday in the stake. Mig, mistakenly (and for no apparent reason) tried to move him into a position he wasn't used to and he fought him. And, for that matter, look at the trainer/jock attempting to get Barcola out of his game in the same race. Both lost all chance at winning. Maturity continues to be the buzz word for me regarding this. Andy is correct regarding most speed horses not being able to rate in a race. I do think Mr. Fantasy is special precisely because he is a very intelligent/mature horse with only two ny bred races under his belt. I can't wait to get to the track!
It is exciting to go to the track to see a race that really will tell us something about the derby potential of many of these top three year olds. And with the weather in the 50's/without rain it will be a fair playing field for all.

[Handicappy]

Originally Posted by the_fat_man

While I appreciate the lesson about the obvious, it's actually NOT as obvious as all that.

To get a horse to rate you do in fact need to RESTRAIN IT, in most cases against its will
but not how Douglas, Homeister, and countless others do it

the horse needs to be restrained without being choked out
we typically don't get this
what we get is the extremes: not enough hold or too much hold

though I suspect that if it were left up to the horses, we'd probably have some better run races --- couldn't be any worse

do the mofo's who train ever watch races or do they just go by what the (in most cases) idiot jocks tell them?
it's rhetorical

Add Santos to your notable list. Used to make me crazy.