Just for a change of pace

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We should use those 100% accurate gentler methods? Maybe ask them nicely if they are a terrorist?

Everybody in prison is innocent too, just ask them.

But the assumption that every one of the captives is a terrorist and should be punished without benefit of a trial goes against everything this country is based on. No?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I suppose that you and Brian are more qualified than the Justice dept to determine whether or not the law was properly applied. These techniques were feeble compared to what should have been inflicted to him under Shira law. Maybe we should interrogate them under Shira law so they feel more at home? That way we dont insult their Islamic heritage.

Or maybe we should interrogate them under the laws of the geneva convention like we expect our boys to be interrogated.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

You walk down a dangerous road when you get rid of the checks and balances and let individuals become judge, jury and executioner.

Do we really want to be a country that claims to be spreading democracy and human rights around the globe while at the same time denying these same basic ideals at our choosing?

Hard to be fighting for human rights and then denying them at the same time. No?

Come on be serious. First of all no other country save Switzerland would possibly hold themselves to these standards. Plus outside of academia, no other country really would be nearly as kind as we are. Think that Russia or China holds itself to standards? Please. There is basic human rights and there are terrorists. They give up their rights not to mention that they fail to fit a standard citizen or soldier role. What exactly would you do? I just think it is laughable when someone comes up with this argument when there is no doubt about Americas role in the world. We give the IMF $100 billion yet we need to worry about what these countries think about torture? And the irony of the countries of their origin refusing to take these people back has to mean something doesnt it? Wonder why our brothers on the UN Security Council dont bring this issue up too often. Like I said before, what happens to these individuals should be carried out under whatever cloak of darkness the govt decides just like the other countries of the world.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

But the assumption that every one of the captives is a terrorist and should be punished without benefit of a trial goes against everything this country is based on. No?

How can they realistically go to trial in our court system? They would all get off based upon the Miranda law. Our system isnt designed to deal with this type of problem but giving rights to foreign terrorists isnt a step in the right direction. There are bad things that happen in this world and it isnt fair. But these arent citizens of this country nor were they found in our country.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Or maybe we should interrogate them under the laws of the geneva convention like we expect our boys to be interrogated.

You know why they dont fall under Geneva. Our solders do because they are soldiers of a country. Geneva wasnt designed to deal with this.


We need to stop being so damn PC and deal with bad guys like bad guys.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Come on be serious. First of all no other country save Switzerland would possibly hold themselves to these standards. Plus outside of academia, no other country really would be nearly as kind as we are. Think that Russia or China holds itself to standards? Please. There is basic human rights and there are terrorists. They give up their rights not to mention that they fail to fit a standard citizen or soldier role. What exactly would you do? I just think it is laughable when someone comes up with this argument when there is no doubt about Americas role in the world. We give the IMF $100 billion yet we need to worry about what these countries think about torture? And the irony of the countries of their origin refusing to take these people back has to mean something doesnt it? Wonder why our brothers on the UN Security Council dont bring this issue up too often. Like I said before, what happens to these individuals should be carried out under whatever cloak of darkness the govt decides just like the other countries of the world.

Just so I understand...you are actually justifying your position on the way we deal with human rights by using Russia and China as examples?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

How can they realistically go to trial in our court system? They would all get off based upon the Miranda law. Our system isnt designed to deal with this type of problem but giving rights to foreign terrorists isnt a step in the right direction. There are bad things that happen in this world and it isnt fair. But these arent citizens of this country nor were they found in our country.

Just to understand. You feel that is lawful and just for a goverment to go on foreign soil (war zone or not), kidnap a citizen of that foreign country, torture them and hold them captive for years...on grounds of suspicion.

Does that sum it up?

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Just to understand. You feel that is lawful and just for a goverment to go on foreign soil (war zone or not), kidnap a citizen of that foreign country, torture them and hold them captive for years...on grounds of suspicion.

Does that sum it up?

Kidnap? that's kind of funny. Maybe you think we should be on trial then? How do you feel about killing them while in the war zone? Disarm the military and give them tasers? Maybe just throw wads of money at them and run away.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I suppose that you and Brian are more qualified than the Justice dept to determine whether or not the law was properly applied. These techniques were feeble compared to what should have been inflicted to him under Shira law. Maybe we should interrogate them under Shira law so they feel more at home? That way we dont insult their Islamic heritage.

?? I made one post, commenting on how similar our methods are to the old KGB. You're off on your own tangent now. Thanks for taking me along for your wild ride, but no thanks.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

Kidnap? that's kind of funny. Maybe you think we should be on trial then? How do you feel about killing them while in the war zone? Disarm the military and give them tasers? Maybe just throw wads of money at them and run away.

Not all the detainees were captured in war zones.

If you were walking down the street in your neighborhood and a van pulled up with masked men and they put a veil over your head and took you to another country...

would you call that kidnapping?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Just so I understand...you are actually justifying your position on the way we deal with human rights by using Russia and China as examples?

We stack up pretty good compared to them, no? Would you rather use India and Pakistan? Or Thailand? Or Indochina? Or Libya? Or Venezuela? Or Cuba? Or Columbia? or ????

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Not all the detainees were captured in war zones.

If you were walking down the street in your neighborhood and a van pulled up with masked men and they put a veil over your head and took you to another country...

would you call that kidnapping?

I'm sure there were tons of cases of isolated innocents being kidnapped by the secret army guys in white vans. And we are crazy?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

?? I made one post, commenting on how similar our methods are to the old KGB. You're off on your own tangent now. Thanks for taking me along for your wild ride, but no thanks.

I have to say that the new KGB must be more effective because they just up and kill people in broad daylight now. Yeah I'm sure that they were writing memos to the Politoboro asking permission to use interrogation methods in Siberia. What kind of dreamland do you guys live in?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We stack up pretty good compared to them, no? Would you rather use India and Pakistan? Or Thailand? Or Indochina? Or Libya? Or Venezuela? Or Cuba? Or Columbia? or ????

How about we hold ourselves to a higher standard and be a real world leader? How about we stop condemning all the countries that you just named for the same behavior that you are condoning?

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I'm sure there were tons of cases of isolated innocents being kidnapped by the secret army guys in white vans. And we are crazy?

based on the stories that are coming forward from the few that have gotten out, my scenario is pretty accurate.

But then again, how would we know? Just like you said earlier to brian, we really wouldnt know. Thats the problem.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

How about we hold ourselves to a higher standard and be a real world leader? How about we stop condemning all the countries that you just named for the same behavior that you are condoning?

Another dream world inhabitant...

You really think if we were to denounce torture and rlease all the prisoners (to where i dont know) that those countries and their leaders would #1 Believe us? Or #2 follow suit?

as Obama is finding out now, dealing with these individuals is far harder in reality than in campaign promise world, hence his following along with many of Bush's same arguments in holding the prisoners.

In other countries they regularly imprison or kill political opponents. I'm sure that our treatment of terrorists will have a profound effect on that practice.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I have to say that the new KGB must be more effective because they just up and kill people in broad daylight now. Yeah I'm sure that they were writing memos to the Politoboro asking permission to use interrogation methods in Siberia. What kind of dreamland do you guys live in?

Apparently the one where I'm not really participating in this discussion, but you bring up my name anyway so you can diss what I haven't said.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

based on the stories that are coming forward from the few that have gotten out, my scenario is pretty accurate.

But then again, how would we know? Just like you said earlier to brian, we really wouldnt know. Thats the problem.

Exactly. The fact that they had talked about their story alone puts us way down the chain of fear of Intellegence services. Think anyone talks after the Moussad or KGB releases them? Or I should say survives afterwards?

I know that bad things occur in the world. Condoning or approving them doesnt change the fact that they happen and in many cases need to happen. Think the three pirates killed would have surrendered willingly if they thought they would have been treated "fairly"? So killing them to save a life is less of a n issue than sleep deprivation of a terror suspect that may be withholding info on a imminent plot? Who gets to choose?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Riot

Apparently the one where I'm not really participating in this discussion, but you bring up my name anyway so you can diss what I haven't said.

Did you not post and where was your name brought up?

Do you really think that those 10 techniques are comparable to what happened in Russia (and most likely still is?)

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Another dream world inhabitant...

You really think if we were to denounce torture and rlease all the prisoners (to where i dont know) that those countries and their leaders would #1 Believe us? Or #2 follow suit?

as Obama is finding out now, dealing with these individuals is far harder in reality than in campaign promise world, hence his following along with many of Bush's same arguments in holding the prisoners.

In other countries they regularly imprison or kill political opponents. I'm sure that our treatment of terrorists will have a profound effect on that practice.

Didnt say to release all the prisoners. I said that they deserve trials and representation. The ones that can't be rightfully condemned should be released.

Obama has been in office about 3 months. Action on this front could still be forthcoming. Seems like the man has a lot on his plate right now.