Rachel vs. Zenyatta: Which run the better race?

[Bobby Fischer]

a special race needs to be created for these two

if the first(Saratoga) is a success, a rematch is in order out west...

[Bobby Fischer]

Aesthetically synthetci surfaces suck. They tends to gravitate towards a cheaper version of turf racing when stakes purses aren't powering it.

Synth at it's best is a no excuses battle ground for the worlds top horses.

[the_fat_man]

I'm too lazy to look up the other races on the days that Z ran to debate your claim. (I've recently written some code that would easily do this but it doesn't cover her early races.) Of course, I find it unlikely that a horse can run a single style of race and win 11 in a row doing so. We both know that most of these horses are only as good as their setup ('pace' in your language).

RA can demonstrate that she's better than Z. All she has to do is come west, where her 'pace' advantage won't be as 'advantageous'. Jackson isn't afraid of a FAIR race, is he?

As for POLY, all I know is that it is the most 'precise' surface out there. I don't play with any figures at all, as you well know, and POLY allows me to play angles that I can't even play on turf; let alone on dirt. Honestly, I just don't see the bias thing. I see fair racing, where timing of moves dictates who wins.

[cmorioles]

I don't have my "Champions" book handy, but didn't Personal Ensign, Seattle Slew, Hallowed Dreams, Cigar, etc. all win a bunch in a row running the same style?

Why are synthetics more fair than dirt? I don't understand why making speed a disadvantage is a fair race.

Imagine if they eliminated the time trials from the Tour de France, the ultimate test in bike racing. Would that make it more fair?

[10 pnt move up]

I hate Poly, I hate Pro Ride but I am cool with Cushion Track at Hollywood, it is a very fair surface. Unfortunately they have the worst racing of the year due to the schedule, if everyone had cushion I dont think you would hear as much chatter about "plastic".

I wonder though, its clear the end game is HOY to the owners of Zenyatta, if they think about it if they are undefeated and win the BC Classic against older males, and as some have pointed out top Euro's would that be a better win then the Preakness against the mighty MTB and Musket Man?

Or if they would guarantee it I would be all for a meeting on RA's home track in the Clark after the Distaff. I think CD is a very fair surface.

[the_fat_man]

Speed isn't a disadvantage on poly. It's just not the advantage that it is on dirt. It's essentially the same as what it is on turf. To wire the field on turf or poly you have to earn it. You have to actually run well rather than have the track carry you. As a handicapper, this is about as challenging as it gets.You need to be able to identify a horse that has the guts to fight it out on the front end. What's beautiful about the surface is that you can have the best horse in the race and not be afraid to bet it in the case of a pace disadvantage, as you know that if your jock correctly times his move, he'll run down the loose leader.

The time trial analogy is not a good one. This is an individual effort. I'd certainly be all for speed figures is tbred racing was a time trial.
Racing (both cycling and tbred) is a group effort. But it's interesting that in cycling the drafter has a huge advantage, while in dirt racing the pace setter has it.

I thought about Personal Ensign after my initial post. Unfortunately, I don't have the charts of her races and can't really compare her style. Did she come from last in all her races?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

By the old (conventional?) speed charts, Zenyatta would have gotten about 100.

Pace and competition are more factors than just simplifying handicapping to comparing speed figures, I'm glad someone noticed the original intention of my post. I know Rachel A is not 8-10 points a better horse than Zen is whether it's the new or old synth numbers. To me they are in the same ballpark and really it is race dynamics that will prove who is better on any given day.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by CSC

I know Rachel A is not 8-10 points a better horse than Zen is whether it's the new or old synth numbers

You know this? Zenyatta ran once on dirt with a favorable pace scenario and received a 104 Beyer as a 4 year old. Rachel has run 111, 108, 108 last three as a young 3 year old.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I get the feeling that the only chance this has of happening is if Monmouth or Delaware creates a race. Shirreffs doesn't want to run out of the detention barn so that would make NY unlikely. Jackson doesn't want to run on junk so that rules out a few other places. Monmouth made a race for Big Brown last year. Maybe they'll do one for this race this year.

Haskin read my idea then wrote it as his own.
http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse...it-happen.aspx