Catholic Leadership

[Danzig]

how (supposed) celibate men can make any comments and concrete statements regarding sex lives, i don't know. that would be akin to me telling a boy how to become a man. how the hell would i know?

[brianwspencer]

It's very long, but a blogger I like wrote quite extensively on this -- the entire post is worth a read, but I've knocked out my favorite part below that really speaks to what pisses me off so much.

I love how Giuseppe dalla Torre, head of the Vatican's tribunal...took a moment to note that the Catholic Church "is not a multi-national corporation." In case no one had noticed.

Q: Besides NOT PAYING TAXES, how can you tell the Church isn't a multi-national corporation?

A: If Microsoft, say, were discovered to have been covering up an international child rape ring among its ranks for (at least) decades, and Bill Gates were discovered to have authored a letter ordering members of his organization to keep it secret, and the Dublin office had been discovered to be conspiring with police to hide evidence and silence survivors, and employees who had been identified as child rapists were just moved to other offices, like pedophilia is all about location location location! and because the organization's reputation is more important than protecting children from known rapists, and Microsoft spent more time deflecting responsibility and blaming its gay employees (FOR ****'S SAKE) for the crimes committed by the sexual predators the organization had abetted and protected...Microsoft would be OUT OF ****ING BUSINESS.

Because no one would be making any goddamn excuses for any multi-national corporation, no matter how much other "good stuff" they'd allegedly done, if that organization had been found to be disproportionately staffed with men eminently capable of committing or concealing child rape, corruptible from guy in the local franchise straight to the CEO at the top.

That corporation would be DONE.

But claim to have a direct line to God, and suddenly everything's different.

That is Christian privilege of almost inconceivable proportions, right there: As long as you assert a belief in divine justice, you're more likely to escape human justice.

It's a particularly cruel irony that those who assert moral authority are given the most latitude to behave in immoral ways without the inconvenient bother of being held accountable for their crimes.

And when people who are decidedly unthrilled about the privilege conferred upon religious institutions, particularly in the midst of a worldwide crisis of sexual assault in which countless children have been victimized, challenge this privilege, they are dismissed as bigots, as wanton haters of the Church, or its adherents, or its doctrine—as if there is not a preponderance of evidence to warrant legitimate criticism, as if they are being unfair, as if standing up for children, vociferously and unyieldingly and despite knowing the shitstorm of accusations of bigotry to come, is somehow evidence of a "real" moral failing.

As if compassion for countless children being sexually assaulted is just a convenient excuse to criticize the Church used by atheists and secularists and feminists and other nefarious types.

[hi_im_god]

if you liked that, you'll love this utterly tone deaf vatican response:


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...3A4PAD9ER3GTO0

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI's personal preacher on Friday likened accusations against the pope and the Catholic church in the sex abuse scandal to "collective violence" suffered by the Jews.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

if you liked that, you'll love this utterly tone deaf vatican response:


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...3A4PAD9ER3GTO0

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI's personal preacher on Friday likened accusations against the pope and the Catholic church in the sex abuse scandal to "collective violence" suffered by the Jews.

Oh wow. That's unbelievable.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

if you liked that, you'll love this utterly tone deaf vatican response:


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...3A4PAD9ER3GTO0

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI's personal preacher on Friday likened accusations against the pope and the Catholic church in the sex abuse scandal to "collective violence" suffered by the Jews.

i just finished reading about that on msnbc. outrageous and completely out of touch with what the real issue is here.



'While Cantalamessa delivered his ringing defense of the pontiff, the church in Benedict's native Germany made the unusually frank admission that it failed to help victims of clerical abuse because it wanted to protect its reputation.

Archbishop Robert Zollitsch, head of the German bishops' conference, said clerics neglected helping victims because of a "wrongly intended desire to protect the church's reputation." '

the church sticks its head in the sand, pretends everything is hunky dory, and hopes it'll all just go away. well, everything but the money.

i think the desire to protect the church's image is what contributed, and continues to contribute to how these abuse cases are handled-which is very, very poorly.


but for that guy to compare this to the holocaust-gimme a break.

[Danzig]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36166058...d_news-europe/


apparently it's the church's position that this is all 'petty gossip'. have they no concept of reality? how much credibility will the church have when this is all said and done?

Muslims > Catholics

[Danzig]

i figure in about four hundred years a pope will apologize for all this. that's about how long it took for an apology after the inquisitions ended. i understand the current pope wants to re-start the prayer for the conversion of jews as well.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i figure in about four hundred years a pope will apologize for all this. that's about how long it took for an apology after the inquisitions ended. i understand the current pope wants to re-start the prayer for the conversion of jews as well.

they're incapable of dealing with this issue in a way that satisfies anyone outside. no modern institution works like the vatican other than the vatican.

you hit it on the head with the idea that it will take centuries because those are the time frames they believe they have to deal in.

obviously it's ridiculous but they actually think they're weighing a small matter like child rape against the bigger issue of redeeming the world.

and compared to the torture and murder of the inquisition, how bad is a few thousand raped kids? it's not like they endorsed child rape. they only hid the fact some low level employee's engaged in it for decades.

the inquisition happened. and they have a billion + believer's.

why would they think this isn't something that blows over in the next 50 years with essentially no damage? walk a mile in their shoes.

[randallscott35]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/wo...atican.html?hp

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/wo...atican.html?hp

he only abused 1 boy??

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

he only abused 1 boy??

Choosey in Priest Terms

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Choosey in Priest Terms

I'm not EVEN gonna touch that......

[Danzig]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37954415...d_news-europe/

Pope: Belgian sex abuse raids deplorable
by NICOLE WINFIELD
Associated Press Writer
updated 48 minutes ago

The pope on Sunday called the raids carried out by Belgian police investigating priestly sex abuse "deplorable" and asserted the right of the Catholic Church to investigate abuse alongside civil law enforcement authorities.

Pope Benedict XVI issued a message Sunday to the head of the Belgian bishops' conference, Monsignor Andre-Joseph Leonard, expressing his solidarity with all Belgian bishops "in this sad moment."



sorry, a priest or biship deserves no different treatment from anyone else suspected of committing a crime.

[timmgirvan]

Originally Posted by Danzig

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37954415...d_news-europe/

Pope: Belgian sex abuse raids deplorable
by NICOLE WINFIELD
Associated Press Writer
updated 48 minutes ago

The pope on Sunday called the raids carried out by Belgian police investigating priestly sex abuse "deplorable" and asserted the right of the Catholic Church to investigate abuse alongside civil law enforcement authorities.

Pope Benedict XVI issued a message Sunday to the head of the Belgian bishops' conference, Monsignor Andre-Joseph Leonard, expressing his solidarity with all Belgian bishops "in this sad moment."



sorry, a priest or biship deserves no different treatment from anyone else suspected of committing a crime.

Pope doing a CYA......they're lucky not to be tarred and feathered!

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37954415...d_news-europe/



sorry, a priest or biship deserves no different treatment from anyone else suspected of committing a crime.

I would go further and state they deserve harsher treatment because of the violation of trust; similar to a policeman using his badge to commit crimes.

IMO The problem the church is currently having was brought on by itself. The recruiting of new priests was dwindling badly in the 50's. The church was taking anyone, not just the devoted (called as they say). Because going in 'candidates' knew they would not be allowed to marry the job naturally appealed more to homosexual men (who at that time had no hope of marriage and little hope of a long-term relationships) besides the decision to become a priest was applauded by parents and family. Of those priests a small portion were child molesters as well as homosexual. With these men then in a position of power and trust over adolescent boys a ticking time bomb was activated that could not be stopped. The problem snow balled and the church in an effort to avoid bad publicity and thus falling donations swept it under the rug.

The homosexual/child molesting priests can be found and eradicated. The greed of the Catholic Church cannot. I know of actions by parishes I have been involved in that are absolutely sickening. That said I still feel I am Catholic, believe in God and will call for a priest on my deathbed. I will also be suspicious of any priest who is around my nephews or their kids until I make that call.

[Danzig]

i thought the issue of criminous clerics was settled way back when with henry the second and thomas a becket. i guess not.

the pope is flat, dead wrong with his persistence that priests should be treated differently just because they are supposedly 'men of god' and are part of the catholic church. and i also think that countries should quit treating the vatican as a country, with an ambassador. hell, they're trying to keep the pope from any questioning by saying he has the same immunity as a former president or other world leader. bullsh!t. the catholic church should receive no more protection than any other business or its leader. it's not a sovereign state, and should not be recognized as such! if bill gates had been committing wrongdoing, would he get a pass? no. would he be subpoenaed in an investigation? absolutely. the pope should have no more standing than bill gates.

i wish i hadn't been raised catholic-i find it an embarrassment to have ever been involved with them. i repudiate them, and their greed and hypocrisy. i follow the golden rule, and have taught my kids the same. that's plenty for me.

[Danzig]

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/t...nt?oid=1065017



The "Pedophile's Paradise"Alaska Natives are accusing the Catholic Church of using their remote villages as a “dumping ground” for child-molesting priests—and blaming the president of Seattle University for letting it happen.


In September 2005, former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger—who'd just become the pope—asked the justice department of the Bush administration to grant him immunity from prosecution in sex-abuse cases in the United States. Ratzinger, the onetime head of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, was accused of "conspiring to cover up the sexual molestation of three boys by a seminarian" in Texas, according to the Associated Press. Ratzinger had "written in Latin to bishops around the world, explaining that 'grave' crimes such as the sexual abuse of minors would be handled by his congregation. The proceedings of special church tribunals handling the cases were subject to 'pontifical secret,'" Ratzinger's letter said. The Bush administration granted Ratzinger the immunity.

In 2007, the Archdiocese of Los Angeles agreed to pay $660 million to more than 500 victims of clerical sex abuse.

Why does the church keep sending these priests, who have come to be such a major liability, back into ministry? "It's all about keeping the stores open, keeping the revenue rolling," Wall says. The Alaskan provinces in particular, Wall says, were a source of revenue—not from the Native population living there, but from parishioners in the lower 48 who were encouraged to donate for the Native ministry up north. "You could raise thousands to fund a mission that cost very little to run," Wall says. "The profit margin is huge."

[docicu3]

Originally Posted by Danzig

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37954415...d_news-europe/

Pope: Belgian sex abuse raids deplorable
by NICOLE WINFIELD
Associated Press Writer
updated 48 minutes ago

The pope on Sunday called the raids carried out by Belgian police investigating priestly sex abuse "deplorable" and asserted the right of the Catholic Church to investigate abuse alongside civil law enforcement authorities.

Pope Benedict XVI issued a message Sunday to the head of the Belgian bishops' conference, Monsignor Andre-Joseph Leonard, expressing his solidarity with all Belgian bishops "in this sad moment."



sorry, a priest or biship deserves no different treatment from anyone else suspected of committing a crime.

As usual Deb your spot on with this......but let me offer a few additional thoughts please excuse the personal content.

As much as I agree these bas trds belong in the same state owned 2 person condos that all found guilty defendants should get which includes the poetic justice of roommates who have their own idea about the practice of daily intimacies on the cell block, I have to bring these pastoral issues back to a personal place that helped me remain somewhat with a christian heart despite being surrounded by the toxic human flaws of some individuals in the priesthood for most of my childhood and teen years.

My parents "split up" when I was 7 years of age and the youngest of 5 kids, shortly thereafter my mother began what would be a 30 year supposed secret affair with a local pastor of a nearby Catholic church. The pain and shame this caused cannot be adequately quantified as my siblings and I living in a small densely Catholic community watched the years pass as the confusion and anger this forced relationship caused my brothers and sisters continued to esculate despite our protest. As numerous other clergy continued to treat this relationship as a normal marriage, neighbors grew more vocal while these clergy continued to increase in number with new women of favor. A room full of priests, booze and their women was an unnatural but common weekend gathering for me growing up.

My father, who would raise me in my teen years, complained bitterly for years to Catholic leadership in Boston without acknowledgment or progress toward removing this priest from our home of multiple small children.

Leaving out any further description of the atrocities of those years it comes down to this........

I didn't write this here with the intention of discussing the merits of my religion vs any other version of Christianity or to contrast completely different faiths with Catholic teachings for that matter so I'll skip the why's of my practice of faith. I write this to address how I got past this insanity.

I remain a Catholic man who has raised his children in the church practicing a life that is based essentially on the 10 rules. I attend mass, look forward to celebratory holidays of the faith and teach my version of CCD to get kids ready for confirmation.

I do so because I enjoy the practice of my faith while getting continued strength from it. I cannot let the sickness of the "few" though unfortunately I admit that in some situations the growing numbers of priestly misconduct is far too many to accept, complete with the disgusting human flaws of sexual abuse, greed and seeming complete disregard for all moral and civil laws. These acts cannot be tolerated or unpunished.

To leave the church in response to my unfortunate circumstance is to keep myself and my family from what is right about the essence of living ones life according to the principles of Christ's teachings. So I choose not to leave the faith and give in to the walking filth of these character deficient men who pray on the weak while seemingly living above the law.

I refuse to grant them "understanding" for their voluntary choices of celibacy and supposed life of poverty because it's hard or uncomfortable. If you make these choices and take a stand intended to last a lifetime then live with it or get out of the church as leadership.

Separating human flaws from criminal behavior took awhile in my house, the faith that remained was a gift. The gifts these social, civil and moral criminals deserve have been earned of their own choices. To ignore the choices of these men and their consequences deserved is contributing to the problem. Removal of those not worthy from the church while sentencing those found guilty is the only way the faith can heal. I don't ignore the past but I choose not to let it dominate the future.

Let justice remain blind but consistently delivered in every way for everyone.....I like the 2 horse in the first at Arlington today.

[Danzig]

that was a heck of a post doc, i appreciate you responding. i try to follow the teachings christ gave the world, i just don't feel the need to go to church to follow them. matter of fact, more people who say they're christian and use that as an excuse to hate and judge others need to go back to sunday school! i just personally will never walk back into a catholic church for anything other than a funeral mass, and they won't ever get another thin dime from me....

many things irritate me, but nothing sets me off faster than when a child is hurt-or worse. that absolutely infuriates me, which is why i feel such disgust for this particular institution. this attitude from them is centuries old. the shame will be if they continue this for even one more day.